Talk:Penelope

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Penelope article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Greece Top‑importance

	Greece portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Greece, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Greece on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.GreeceWikipedia:WikiProject GreeceTemplate:WikiProject GreeceGreek articles
Top	This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.

Classical Greece and Rome Mid‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Classical Greece and Rome, a group of contributors interested in Wikipedia's articles on classics. If you would like to join the WikiProject or learn how to contribute, please see our project page. If you need assistance from a classicist, please see our talk page.Classical Greece and RomeWikipedia:WikiProject Classical Greece and RomeTemplate:WikiProject Classical Greece and RomeClassical Greece and Rome articles
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Mythology Top‑importance

	Mythology portal This article is supported by WikiProject Mythology. This project provides a central approach to Mythology-related subjects on Wikipedia. Please participate by editing the article, and help us assess and improve articles to good and 1.0 standards, or visit the WikiProject page for more details.MythologyWikipedia:WikiProject MythologyTemplate:WikiProject MythologyMythology articles
Top	This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.

Women's History Mid‑importance

	History portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Women's History, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Women's history and related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Women's HistoryWikipedia:WikiProject Women's HistoryTemplate:WikiProject Women's HistoryWomen's History articles
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

About Penelope's knowledge of Odysseus’ return

This particular comment should be expanded, probably by referring to passages that point in that direction. It is still debated among scholars, but the possibility that Penelope knows about Odysseus’ return adds to her character and should be discussed in more detail. Particularly when considering the fact that she is supposed to be Odysseus equal when it comes to cunning and resourcefulness (another detail that should be included).

"Fishy"

Z.S.: I made some minor modifications, mainly additions today. I wonder if someone can check the last sentence, because it seems quite confusing, "fishy." (At least for a person whose English a second language.) I have a small mythological dictionary that says that Telemachus was son of Ulysses and Penelope. Telegonus was the son and slayer of Ulysses. Our text: "After Odysseus'death, she (Penelope) married his son by Circe, Telegonus, with whom she was the mother of Italus." I doubt that Penelope could have married the son of Odysseus. The reason: Penelope had a teenager son when Telegonus (son of Odysseus and Circe) was born in Italy, so herself must have been 25-30 years older than that youngster. Our contributor(s) may have meant something else, but from the text it is unclear who has married whom. It is also hard to believe that a Greek lady would have moved to Italy, to her rival's territory. Hopefully someone can check these doubts in a larger mythological sourcebook. Perhaps a better explanation exists.(anonymous)

Rather than "reasoning" in the vacuum of one's interior sense of what's "likely", one might begin at the Wikipedia article Telegonus. Creating "biographies" of mythic figures is indulged in by pious Christians but doesn't apply meaningfully to Greek mythology, though Wikipedia articles are peppered with naive attempts.--Wetman (talk) 18:10, 6 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Misapplied logic

From the article:

As dogs normally do not live longer that 18 years, and since the hero's son was just a lad upon his return, he must have been in Ithaca in 1192, when the war broke out.

That applies to the dogs of epic legend, too? There are lots of places where this sort of analysis on Greek mythology is a very bad idea, so I'm taking this out.

Related to the above, I took out the various other dates in the article, because there is no way anyone can seriously attempt to be precise about a mythological event. Adam Bishop 21:14, 18 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Image

Wow, when was that image made? That looks a whole lot like a Mary statue...minus the baby Jesus... Adam Bishop 05:13, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Unanswered Questions

The story of Penelope marrying Odysseus' natural son is part of the Telegony. According to that Telemachos also married Circe. There are also legends that she was banished by Odysseus for being unfaithful while he was gone or that she somehow became the mother of Pan. I'm getting this from the Oxford Dictionary of Classical Myth & Religion.

What I'm really looking for is the story of how Odysseus won her from her father. Anybody know anything about that? I know a footrace and the help of Helen's father were involved, and I know I've read it somewhere before, but I can't seem to track it down.

Why does the "Role in the Odyssey" segment end in the sentence "This whole family is gay"? This definitely calls into questions the npov of this article. Achastai 13:15, 10 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Bad English

There were two words in this article which are highly technical, and thus have no place in an article for the general reader. I removed them. They are "skive" which is used only in the trade of lether working, and means to thin the edge of a piece of leather prior to gluing it to another; and "mytheme" which means a story theme in a myth which indicates its relationship to other myths through a common literary ancestor. Nick Beeson (talk) 10:02, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Certainly that may be one use of mytheme, which actually signifies an irreducible nugget of mythic material, one that can't be broken into a a smaller piece: twins-separated-at-birth is a mytheme; snake-licking-the-sage's-ear is a mytheme.--Wetman (talk) 12:03, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Greek and Latin words for "suitors"

I removed that sliver of a section as it strikes me as irrelevant. The Crime and Punishment article doesn't tell us the Russian word for "detective," after all. Nor should it. Ifnkovhg (talk) 09:30, 10 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Feminist readings

The intro refers to feminist readings of the tale. This needs to be expanded on in the actual article. -- Beardo (talk) 21:26, 29 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Another beautiful portrait of Penelope

I have been reading about Candace Wheeler, an arts and crafts era textile artist and ran across an embroidery of Penelope unraveling her work at night by Dora Wheeler (daughter of Candace) It is at the Met in NY. I think it would be a great addition to the images of Penelope on this page.

70.181.178.180 (talk) 19:54, 9 November 2019 (UTC)S Rideout - 11/9/2019[reply]

Etymology

I'm fairly sure that "Penelope" meant a female mallard duck, not Wigeon. I'm looking for sources — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.26.107.82 (talk) 22:49, 4 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]