Talk:Umami

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 24 August 2020 and 11 December 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Tyingmyshiu. Peer reviewers: JBonz, Cmbio401.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 11:56, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

English

Why the unusual Japanese word just simply the word “savoury” or “savoury” [US]? This Wikipedia English version. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.143.179.3 (talk) 03:40, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

A tycoon wanted to have sushi for dinner, but a tsunami had hit the coast and the fish markets were gone, so instead he decided to hibachi a burger with a side of ramen. Afterwards he played some sudoku then did some zen meditation, and finally sent a 'sleepy' emoji to his friend before going to bed.

Each of the wikilinked words above is a loan word from Japanese, in common use in english. Umami is a perfectly serviceable word. Is there a problem you perceive with using the word? cheers. anastrophe, an editor he is. 03:58, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Not to mention that “savory” isn’t a good translation; it can apply to flavors that are not umami. Strebe (talk) 19:19, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

I think it's interesting the words you chose. "Tycoon" links to "Business Magnate", with tycoon as an alternate loanword from Japanese. Hibachi, Sushi, Sudoku all refer to things that are Japanese creations, without existing English words to use in their place. "Zen" is the Japanese pronunciation of a Chinese word taken from a Sanskrit word. But Umami? Umami isn't any of those. The Wikipedia page repeatedly uses "savoury" as a way to explain Umami. Savoury being the word English-speaking people understand. If you need to explain what Umami is with an English word, there's definitely a larger discussion to be had. Umami and Savoury are not interchangeable, and Umami has a specific scientific background that Savoury lacks. From a Scientific standpoint, Umami is the word that is used, and not even as a loanword. But for general parlance, for a casual discussion about taste - savoury is the word. It's an existing word, it's the sole word used to explain what Umami is, and before the word Umami was decided on, the fifth taste was savoury. People who repeatedly try to paint the tension over shoving the word "Umami" into the language as racist are not having an honest discussion. Maybe there will be a day far in the future where Umami stands on its own without savoury next to it to explain things, but until that happens people are going to bristle at this "Umami is the word there can be no debate" attitude towards a word which needs another word to explain it. Clearly the forced adoption of Umami is not going as well as some people want to pretend. And given how well you illustrated how easily some Japanese loanwords slip into English with no friction and a wide adoption - clearly there's something to the resistance to Umami beyond "you're racist if you don't like this word". Even with a Scientific background, Umami is an ill-defined concept. And while "savoury" can apply to flavours that are not "Umami" - how do you explain that? Shouldn't the Wikipedia article go into depth on that? I'd find that an interesting read. Instead the Wikipedia article uses them interchangeably. This is part of the problem. This is part of the resistance. I do feel there is a large amount of a "smarter than you" attitude when it comes to Umami. You clearly believe you know what Umami is and is not, but you have not used that knowledge to explain things in the article. But you are very happy to insult others and call them racist for not understanding what you very definitively know about a word that Wikipedia uses interchangeably with savoury. Umami is a difficult word. It means something, it's hard to explain, and in the meantime everyone is just going to explain Umami as savoury - but it doesn't mean savoury. But that's the word we're going to use to explain it. But don't think Umami is savoury, it's not, and if you think it is you're racist. Gee what a fun, non-problematic word! Let's compare it to Sudoku while we're at it, I remember the great Sudoku wars where everyone wanted to call them by their traditional English name. You see it yet? If you really want to hasten Umami adoption, maybe find another slant on how to separate Umami and savoury that isn't "the non-racists use Umami". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.14.86.5 (talk) 08:04, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

I have a lot of problems with this commentary but the one I’m going to spend a few seconds on is to point out that the word “racist” never appeared in this discussion, nor any sentiment like it, until you (= 100.14.86.5) mysteriously invoked it. Strebe (talk) 18:37, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. I have no idea why this has 'triggered' anon-ip so deeply. His/hers is the first "resistance" to the word umami that I've come across. cheers. anastrophe, an editor he is. 21:06, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

Where Did Savory Go?

Until about a decade ago I had no idea what Umami was. I'm in the US BTW. Now we are to accept umami as a replacement to savory? I know savory when I taste it, I'm not so sure about umami. I really doubt any English language cookbook over 20 year old mentions umami. Why don't we just accept the five basic tastes as ....shioaji, kanmi, nigami, sanmi, and umami? My basic question for the article is.... Shouldn't there be an explanation as to Western culture replacement of a known term with a still mostly confusing term?Flight Risk (talk) 21:33, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

This has been discussed repeatedly here. “Savory” is not synonymous with “umami”; it’s merely the closest single word in English. What has been known forever in English as “savory” is not a basic taste. There is no receptor for “savory”. Meanwhile “umami” as applied to the basic taste, while a Japanese word, is a neologism that is not synonymous with the historical Japanese word “umami”. It is pronounced identically, is etymologically descended from it, but it is written differently and means something different. The point is, umami (neologism) is newly identified as a fundamental taste. Savory is not, and neither is (historical) “umami”. Strebe (talk) 23:54, 20 September 2024 (UTC)