Talk:Æsir

*Ansuz?

The article states "The reconstructed Proto-Germanic form is *ansuz (plural *ansiwiz). The a-rune ᚫ was named after the æsir." I don't think that's correct. Can you provide a citation? (I just checked Etymonline.com and it does back this hypothesis, but wondering if you have a harder source.)

In particular, Aesir is generally seen as cognate or at least parallel to "Asura" in Sanscrit (see "Divine Names in Indo-European" by Edgar Polome, in "Essays on Germanic Religion," JIES Monograph 6). (I'll have to double check but I think Dumezil assumed that both meant "The Shining Ones." He further connects *ansuz with asa meaning a rein or loop. This suggests that although there may be a clear division in earlier Proto-Germanic between whatever the previous form of Aesir was and *ansuz, though I haven't seen any systematic discussion of this topic in English and have been unable to track down Polome's discussion of the name in French.

--206.130.134.147 (talk) 18:04, 4 July 2010 (UTC) (Einhverfr)

The reconstruction of àss from ansuz is straightforward. We know that à was nasal, and in German and Gothic you find ans- in corresponding names, and in early ON names it was not às but ans-. This means that ON àss comes from an earlier ans-. Not controversial. The -uz is a no-brainer as well. In ON there was the alternative form Ǫss, and ǫ appeared if a following vowel was u, so thus it used to be ansu-. The -z comes from the fact that masculine nouns in the nominative case ended with -z (which later usually became -r in ON) so we get ansuz.--Berig (talk) 20:46, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Minor edits

More too definite statements about Aesir/Vanir found here, snuck in by Kenneth Allan as minor edits. Martijn faassen 23:00, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Any edit that actually adds or removes content shouldn't be a minor edit. Minor edits are for correcting typos, reordering some words, adding a link, things like that. See Wikipedia:How_to_edit_a_page. Martijn faassen 21:42, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)

As / Os

This article states, that many Old English names with "Os" at their heads are derived from "Os" meaning "god". It then states that "Oscar" is derived from a seperate Gaelic word. The same paragraph states that Scandinavian "As" is the same as "Os" and is also found at the head of names, including the name "Asger" and "Asker". Though Asker is from Old Norse Askr (and Mordern Icelandic Askur) English Oscar is not from Gaelic. It comes from the exact same source as Askur and was originally spelled Osgar, meaning "God's spear", and it is the direct Old English equivalent of Asger and modern Icelandic Ásgeir. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.79.156.215 (talk) 13:51, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

pronunciation

Q: could we get a phonetic spelling of aesir? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.61.79.26 (talk) 03:38, 4 October 2004 (UTC)

A: "Ay-zer" or "Ah-seer", frustratingly. Merriam Webster has the former: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Aesir

Done. To the best of my knowledge in IPA. Salleman 21:17, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Salleman's pronunciation was removed at some point. Because it was incorrect? Because it was undocumented? How is "Æsir" pronounced? 75.15.114.250 (talk) 15:29, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

Tyr as god of law and justice?

I think this is creeping in from D&D. In the Forgotten Realms, there's a god of the same name who does embody those virtues, however I'm not aware that this is true of Tyr in Norse mythology. My understanding, and the article here on him, both have him as god of heroism and battle. I'm not confident enough to correct it at this time, but hopefully someone else is.

A lot of authors, I believe Edred Thorsson is one of them, claim with evidence that the "T" rune and the also the god Tyr stands-for/represent oaths, troth, truth, pledges, government, laws, contracts. etc. 67.5.147.235 (talk) 08:39, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

On words "Ása" and "Vana"

"Ása" is the genitive form of "Æsir", thus meaning "of Æsir". I can hardly see how it can "have a more religious connotation" than "Æsir", as is implied in the text, since it is just the same word in a different declinative form. The same is true for "Vana"/"Vanir". In Icelandic (and Old Norse) two words, one describing the other, are often combined to form a new word such that the main word is attached to the genitive form of the describing word. An example would be "Ásatrú" meaning "Worship of Æsir" or "Vanaheimr" literally meaning "World of Vanir".

--213.176.153.126 10:59, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Æsir or æsir?

Should "Æsir" be written with lower or upper case initial? On one hand, they could be seen as a mythological race, like fairy or nymph and so on, and it should then be "æsir"; on the other hand, they could be seen as a people, like Englishmen or Scotsmen, and then "Æsir" would be correct.

See also Talk:Vanir#Vanir or vanir?. Salleman 4 July 2005 16:04 (UTC)

It's a bit like Internet/internet. Since there is only one, the word describes both the thing and the kind. I think that in such cases you usually use a capital. Note also that that people usually say "the Æsir" rather than just "Æsir". Based on this admittedly hand-waving argument, I'd say: keep the capital. Shinobu (talk) 10:28, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Ansuz from North Caucasian (Iberian-Hurrian) 'amssV "God, Sky, Cloud"

Khattian "ESH-TAN" God of Sun; Yenissean Languages esh, es "God"; Nakh-Daghestanian Languages: as "Nobility, Conscience, God" (Lakian); "Autority, Virtue" (Avarian); Tsezian as, Gunzebian has "Sky, Cloud"; Chechenian "asar" Enthusiasm; Tabasaranian ams, Rutulian asiy "Cloud,Mist" (Hurrian ESHI "God") Nikolayev N.S., Starostin S.A. North Caucasian etymological dictionary. Moscow. 1994--80.237.10.233 10:45, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Starostin's claims are interesting indeed, but are very disputed among linguists. Thus, the information should not be added to the page itself... just in case, anyone plans to do this. — N-true 22:00, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Leipziger, du selbst mach es bitte. als Nordkausier-true du sollst es machen.das ist deine nationale nordkaukasische Mission!!! ;-)

I'm German, not Caucasian. —N-true 03:10, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

You will find coincidences in both sound and meaning between any two languages. The strict rule of comparative linguistics is that there must be multiple examples which follow a common rule of sound change between the two languages for the similarity to be anything more than an interesting curiosity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.36.146.28 (talk) 11:28, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

There are some theories about Aesir - Scythian origin . Their name also match other sanskrit -AssurEdelward (talk) 19:04, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Loki?

Loki's page says: "[He] was not a member of Vanir and is not always counted among the Æsir, the two groupings of gods. Sources inconsistently place him among the Æsir; however, this may only be due to his close relation with Odin and the amount of time that he spends among the Æsir (as opposed to his own kin)." - should the list on this page include a note to that effect, or is the information on Loki in need of a change? -Grey Knight 23:43, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Info updated in this article, thanks for pointing that out.
—Asatruer— 03:02, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Loki is a proto-typical trickster deity. Tricksters are never part of the "official" heaven or pantheon and are only accepted in by the "rightful" celestials under certain conditions or by means of deceception, often enough they are closer to demons than actual gods. However, as Grey Knight has pointed out correctly, Loki is not even a Vanir. In fact, his close ties to shamanistic seid reveal him as what he really is; he is an artifact of a neolithic shamanic religion even more ancient than Aesir and Vanir as it was still practiced during historical times by Saami tribes. Traces of this archaic shamanism had been incorporated into Vanir religion prior to the Indo-European invasion that had subsequently introduced the Aesir elements. --Tlatosmd 03:22, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

How do you write it like that?

How does one write "Aesir" with the "A" melting into the "E" like that?

By pushing the Æ button of course :) Haukur 17:33, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Right below the edit box, there's a huge "insert" section, where you can choose between hundreds of characters, including Ææ. Just push it, and it appears. 惑乱 分からん * \)/ (\ (< \) (2 /) /)/ * 16:26, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Lacking a special Æ button, you can press AltGr + Z. Shinobu (talk) 10:33, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

The a-rune

I just wanted to point out that Odin in some other articles is associated with Mercury, and rather Tyr with Jupiter. See these references to Woden and Tiwaz, respectively. --Trakon (talk) 09:12, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

This goes back to modern writers following Roman interpretation, as many Roman ideas about the Germanic peoples survived (via the written medium) but the pre-Christian Germanic perception of themselves did not. 67.5.147.235 (talk) 08:42, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Move to singular

per WP convention, shouldn't we move this article to either Áss or Ós? dab (𒁳) 10:15, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Romans and Sabines in Norse myth, really?

Another historical perspective is that the inter-pantheon interaction may be an apotheosization of the conflict between the Romans and the Sabines.

It seems to me very unlikely that the conflict between the Romans and the Sabines would enter into Nordic religious lore. Of course I don't have the reference cited, perhaps someone who has could check, but I really doubt that is what it says. What I think was meant that the conflict between the Æsir and Vanir parallels the conflict between the Romans and the Sabines, which both could be a "remembrance" of an earlier conflict, like between the Indo-Europeans and earlier inhabitants, although I should note at this point that The Rape of the Sabine Women doesn't mention this at all. Shinobu (talk) 17:45, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Ansuz as the norse logos?

I had read elsewhere (and I know there is a lot of "new age" glossing over of actual historic teutonic use of the runes which is fanciful and completely false) that the Ansuz rune was the Norse/nordic Logos, the word of Odin. an anyone reference this? 4.255.54.96 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 04:48, 27 July 2009 (UTC).

Ásgarðr?

In my read-through, the only place I saw the Ásgarðr page linked was in the middle of the etymology section, where it's not even explained, just used in a list. Given that the Vanir page mentions Vanaheimr early in the introduction, shouldn't this page do the same with Ásgarðr? Narissara (talk) 16:38, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

You're right, and, unfortunately, this article, like Odin and Thor, are currently in a poor state. A rewrite meeting good article criteria would be ideal. Vanir was written by these standards (but it still needs a few more sections before I feel comfortable nominating it for review). :bloodofox: (talk) 17:55, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

That makes sense. I'm afraid I wouldn't feel comfortable embarking on a whole rewrite at the moment (I'm pretty new to the editing side of wikipedia, and still figuring everything out), but if other people with more experience start one, I'd be happy to help out. Thanks for your quick response! Narissara (talk) 00:35, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

is "Norse Paganism" a neutral term?

norse mythology sounds more... serious/academic/encyclopedic. -- Elvenmuse (talk) 18:20, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Doesn't "paganism" denote a faith or belief, rather than "mythology" which denotes a system of myths? 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 23:34, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Asa and asas

Where do the terms "asa" (sg.) and "asas" (pl.) come from? They're not direct citations? I find it weird to use different variants throughout the article? 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 23:36, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Aesir/Asi means Asians. It is probably connected with Huns and the Turkic tribes of king Uldin who settled in northern Danube called also Wallachia/Влахия/ later Wallhalia. Probably Nords were just inspired and amazed from the skills of the easterns and made them somewhat their gods called Asi and worship them for long-long ages.[[1]]

That makes little sense. Its just as plausible to say "because they rode in on asses", a word which is pronounced similarly in English. I for one would like to know the real answer rather than speculation.Trilobitealive (talk) 00:07, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

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Etruscan Religion

I'm quite surprised that no link has been made between the Aesir and the Etruscan word for 'god' (ais, aisar in the plural) LeapUK (talk) 18:21, 1 October 2018 (UTC)

Pronunciation

Doesn't the pronunciation given here come from modern Icelandic, not from Old Norse? Æsir obviously isn't an English word, there needs to be more information given for the pronunciation. I am quite sure that the Old Norse pronunciation wasn't ˈaɪsɪər, every source for Old Norse pronunciation doesn't give this pronunciation of Æ.Eladabudi (talk) 07:38, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

Pronounciation key seems wrong

It's not "ice-ir", but more like "ACE-ir". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.241.128.52 (talk) 14:23, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

Yes, and why link to a paywalled reference? BTW, the Oxford English Dictionary would hardly recommend a rhotic pronunciation.--Berig (talk) 05:51, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Section needs to be reworked

"Given the difference between their roles and emphases, some scholars have speculated that the interactions between the Æsir and the Vanir reflect the types of interaction that occurred between clans (or social classes) within Norse society at the time. [8]: 3–4, 18 [9]: 159–162  In reality, however, the reverse was true; the types of interaction that occurred between clans and classes reflected the types of interactions between the Æsir and the Vanir.[citation needed]"

I dont know who wrote this but the part about " In reality, however, the reverse was true" asserting that Norse culture reflected the Aesir and Vanir definitely needs to be removed. 24.20.136.230 (talk) 06:24, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

Done. TylerBurden (talk) 06:53, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

What is a may?

In the section "List of Æsir", the word "may" is used twice, but there is no wikilink or further definition of "may". It isn't mentioned in the disambig page for may, nor in wiktionary. Neither google, nor bing's AI bot, seemed to have an answer. I have no access to citation #13 (Prose Edda, translated). Could someone please track this down, or remove the word "may" in some way? Also "those who die maids" makes no sense. Typo, perhaps?

"The fourth is Gefjon, who is a may, and those who die maids become her hand-maidens. The fifth is Fulla, who is also a may, she wears her hair flowing and has a golden ribbon about her head; she carries Frigg's chest, takes care of her shoes and knows her secrets."

Grorp (talk) 00:08, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

It'll be a shortening or synonym of "maid" or "maiden" :) (see etymology 3 in this link - [2]). Ingwina (talk) 07:39, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. Grorp (talk) 08:22, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Place names

When I read about place names deriving from Æsir: "No such locations have yet been found in England that are widely accepted by scholars", up in my mind immediately popped "Oswestry", about which Wikipedia (not a reliable source) says: comes from 'Oswald's tree' (possibly), Oswald of course meaning: Æsir tree, therefore Oswestry=Æsir tree squared. Thought I'd share that :), and that the source in the Place Names section needs clarification, particlurly given that there are many other places names in England like 'Osmondthorpe' or 'Osgodby' which have a clear Æsir connection. In other words, is there an Æsir connection if the place name is named after a person whose name derives from the Æsir! 92.12.85.141 (talk) 11:42, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

This is a good point - I'll clarify it when I get time! Ingwina (talk) 07:54, 17 January 2024 (UTC)