Talk:Ang Mo Kio

Untitled February 2005

Is “Ang Mo Kio” originated from “red hairy man” or rambutans, bin-jau or perhaps tomato ? According to media corps radio, they said,

The words 'Ang Mo Kio' mean 'red-haired man's bridge' in the Hokkien dialect. The story of how the Ang Mo Kio area was named, was passed down from the old local village-folk to the present occupants of Ang Mio Kio New Town. The bridge refers to one or two bridges** located in the area during Singapore's era under colonial rule. It was the British who apparently built these bridges during the bygone colonial days. When Ang Mo Kio was transformed from a forested kampong into an HDB-flatted new town in the 1970s, the authorities decided to keep the phonetics of the name 'Ang Mo Kio', but altered the Chinese characters slightly, so that it would read 'large and prosperous bridge', instead of 'red-haired man's bridge' - sources from Google at http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:5qcCRYw9g3QJ:www.newsradio.com.sg/ssi/did_you_know/documents/DYKAMK.doc+&hl=en

Perhaps the sources for the above needed some urgent correction: Actually before the concrete town of Ang Mo Kio existed, our family lived in the kampong (village) and nearly everyone in our kampong have some rambutan trees (“rambutan” is a local exotic red hairy fruit). Many of our kampong old folks who lived in “Ang-mo Dan-Our” (meaning in our Hokkien dialect - village behind/shaded by the rambutan trees) would every morning bring our vegetable and fruits to sell in the marketplace ( known as “Ang Mo Dan khek” – or meaning “rambutan market” in the Hokkien dialect). Besides rambutans we also sell certain vegetables know as “kio”( in Hokkien) which is a local vegetable known as “bin-jau”(Malay). Tomato is not that common and usually imported from elsewhere. Ang Mo Kio is not related with tomatoes.

“Ang-mo-Dan kheh” is exactly located at the 61/4 milestone of Thomson Road. The place where our old school (Sin Khiew Public primary school was founded by the villagers on the old opera stage building) and old temple stood (now demolished) was just next to the market which had a few provision shops, several coffee-shops, a confectionery, some road side dwellings and a Chinese (sinseh’s) pharmacy. The place was later re-located, re-built and re-named “Venus avenue” before when it was decided to demolish it completely. Now it is now just empty State land as a results of the land acquisition laws. That was the story of the kampong of Ang-mo-Dan Khek. Before our little kampong (Ang-mo-Dan Our) was leveled by bulldozers and taken over by the landowners “Messrs United Oversea land Limited” for development, our kampong folks were lucky to be compensated for moving out.. We lived and farmed in the place for as long as we can remember even before the Japanese occupation.

Our family’s attap house was simply numbered as “No:198 Thomson Road” and later they re-named it no. 126-A Lorong Kukus. The old hardened un-named stony kampong roads were later named as Lorong Puntong and Lorong Kukus. It was never fully paved except for a small length nearest the main Thomson road. The road names were created to facilitate for the postman who delivered the letters. Our address with such funny numbers as “No.198 off 6¼ milestone Thomson Road” was misleading and hard to find for the poor postman. Besides it was far away from the main motor trunk road or the old Thomson Road! When the landowners “Messrs United Overseas Land Limited” wanted to take over the old kampong place, they had it surveyed and recorded. Perhaps it was to facilitate the legal matters that a surveyor map and legal documents were drawn up for the purpose. The old map was labeled “Mukim XV111 of Ang Mo Kio” which is found in the surveyors archives of the Government of Singapore. I have a copy, and this old name definitely preceded the creation of the New Town of Ang Mio Kio!

It was assumed incorrectly that the name of Ang Mo Kio refer to the bridge at 7th milestone of Thomson Road (which is found at the junction Ang Mo Kio Avenue 1 and Thomson Road). Were those people who drawn the Map thinking of the rambutans or the Ang Mo <red hairy or Englishman> bridge? You tell me! The old bridge was built to cross over the Kilang river which catches the overflow water from the old Kilang reservoir. (the old Kilang Reservoir was re-named named as the Peirce

Reservoir i.e. named after Robert Peirce, the municipal engineer of Singapore in 1901-). It was locally known as the “Or kio” which means the “black bridge” in Hokkien. As far as I can recall It was never known as the “Ang Kio" or "Ang Mo Kio”. Ang Mo Kio became a common name after the new town of AMK was built. Moreover I understand it was just another unnamed PWD <Public Works Dept> bridge.

However I think that name (Ang Mo Kio) is unrelated to the bridges** mentioned herein but more likely to the people who lived in the kampongs and their exotic “rambutan” (rambutan is pronounced Ang-mo tan!). The area upon which the present New Town of Ang Mo Kio stands was previously known as “Kou-teu kio” meaning the Ninth Bridge in Hokkien.

In the early 60s there were many concrete bridges built by the local villagers for crossing the rivers and streams. Especially after the common use of motor vehicles upon the old stony roads, it necessitated the construction of such concrete bridges (or “kio” in Hokkien). I have the old Map showing some of the old bridges. We used to remember when the old folks known as the “charity people” known as <Chou-kio cho-lor or in Hokkien meaning people helping out to build roads and bridges> would come around to ask the villagers for small donations to help out.

Therefore I would certainly suggest that the name of the New Town of Ang Mo Kio came from the old surveyors maps under “Mukim Ang Mo Kio”. “Mukim” is an old Malay word for the district/area of Ang Mo Kio. It is likely that the origin of the name came from the several names of the villages along the Thomson road and all the bridges (“kio”) found in the area. It did not came from the only two old unnamed bridges** at the corner of AMK Ave 1 and Thomson Road junction.

Certainly Ang Mo Kio New town could not have its origins from the red hairy man ! Well strictly speaking I rather use the mandarin pronunciation meaning "Long prosperous bridge" but it is certainly not the original meaning of the word in Hokkien.

A clever modern day web-site suggested the name Ang-Mo-kio as in “tomato” when simply pronounced in the local Hokkien dialect!

The original name probably reflects the kampongs where there were plentiful of “Ang-Mo Dan” (rambutans) Be my guess. it could well be the rambutans leaving out the "kio"! After all names of places came only when there were people who lived there. In the early beginning this was forested and opened up by the Chinese settlers who had a thriving gambier and pepper plantations in the late 19th century or around1922. http://www.wildsingapore.com/places/lpt.htm That also was the time when my grandfather came from China to settle in the ” Ang Mo Dtan Our” kampong. There were many pineapple plantations too. Rubber became important only after the Second World war.

What would anyone think is actually the origin of the name Ang Mo Kio? Think of the many fruit trees! There were plenty of the fruit trees existing long before the construction of bridges! Take a good look at the red hairy rambutan in this picture goto http://www.nutritionaustralia.org/News_in_Nutrition/Media_Releases/rambutans.asp It would be rediculous to suggest that our old kampongs (Ang Mo Dan-khek and Ang Mo Dan-Our ) were named after the red hairy westerners!

Actually the name of Ang Kio Tau,(in Hokkien meaning "head of the red bridge") were in used prior to the existence of the New town of Ang Mo Kio. There were older folks who understands that the “Ang kio Tau” refer to the place or bridges where the second milestone of Thomson Road (Near the Novena MRT)is presently located. Those bridges were referred as “Ang Kio Tau”. They were located before the old Kampong Chia Heng (also near PWD workshop). That locality is probably the beginning of Mukim Ang Mo Kio. The first mile of Thomson Road is exactly next along the old Canal which was constructed to drain the flash flood rainwater down to the sea. Further on to the beginning of Thomson Road was the area known commonly as "Pek Kio" or the "White bridge" . The Pek Kio Community Centre and the baptist churches are in the locality. There were a series of bridges named (in Hokkien) after basic colours from white to red then to black! All those bridges were built during the colonial times and the PWD <Public Work Department> were responsible. Of course the approval come from the engineers who could be the English engineers, but none of the bridges bear any names related to those people. Whereas in the cases of the important bridges, they all bear the names of the bridge builders or important people in the colonial administration e.g. the Elgin bridge was named after the Governor of the old colony of Singapore. see http://www.guidez.net/place=2356/topic=816/sight=2373/article=4490 Therefore it leave the begging question "why don't they have name of all other small bridges?" Probably your guess is as good as any sensible person. Colonial prejudices! Before the Elgin bridge the local people have two other names for the older bridges constructed by the locals. One of them was known as the Monkey bridge! Certainly none of the responsible people were interested to take credit for those insignificant bridges.

The term "mukim" was certainly the Malay name for the area smaller than the district level. In Malaysia that term is still in used on the maps. For instance there is a place know as Senai in the State of Johore. On the Map it is listed as Mukim of Senai. The Roman numeric standard was an older form of numbering adopted for used by the British from the Latin. For instance I (one) to X (ten), V (five) and III(three). So when the figure of XVIII is exactly 18 by our new standard. Therefore the name Mukim XVIII of Ang Mo Kio signifies the area located on the Map. Presently it is not the site of the New Town of Ang Mo Kio but just next alongside. Mukim XVIII was the housing estate built by the United Overseas Land Limited known as "Faber Gardens". This was the kampong area where our old attap dwelling used to stand at No. 126 A Lorong Kukus. The old Hokkien "kio" (meaning bridge or bridges) are often designation of the local name of the places related to the landmark such as a bridge or as in the case of Ang Mo Kio denoting several bridges in existence.

In conclusion I suggest that the name of Mukim of Ang Mo kio is far older than the new Town of Ang Mo Kio. It is highly possible that the name <Ang Mo Kio> was chosen by Town builders following the original name on the Map. It will be a great idea to use the beautiful red hairy rambutan as the new symbol of the New Town of Ang Mo Kio! see: http://www.proscitech.com.au/trop/display/rambutan.htm

Written by Norman Oh dated 16th Feb. 2005

(permission for re-printed please contact me at norey_23@hotmail.com or just call me only during daytime hours in Singapore 98530121 <mobile> )Thanks! or for further details here wi-ki goto http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image_talk:MukimAMK.jppeg.jpg and take a good look at the IMAGE Image:MukimAMK.jppeg.jpg

POV

In the intro, the sentence on Ang Mo Kio pride, may be touching, but is it POV? Dpr 02:59, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Yes it is. The article needs rewrite in several places in fact....such as those references to "taxi drivers".--Huaiwei 05:28, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Facts are still facts whether POV or NPOV?Alien2 16:01, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps people of another alien culture should be editing some our wikipedian's remarks too!

Cabby<taxi driver> is queer so are Singaporeans? Are all Singaporeans that queer?Alien2 16:01, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Editing

I'm doing some copy/style editing of the article. . .but i have saved the former text. It's highly worth preserving, even if not on this forum, as an example of highly agreeable and lively writing. Dpr 06:43, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Ang Mo Kio and AMK New Town/Planning Area

Why are those topics in their own articles and not in this one? If they do deserve their own articles, at least a summary needs to be left in the Amg Mo Kio article. What's the difference between AMK and AMK new town? Alex.tan 09:19, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Hm...at first we had seperate articles for AMK and AMK New Town etc. Then I merged them together into subsections, but later split them up again when realising they have grown in content by now. To clarify between their differences, Ang Mo Kio as a place name has a boundary different from Ang Mo Kio New Town, the town of which borrows the name from a formarly small area, and planned and built by the HDB. Ang Mo Kio Planning Area, again, covers a much bigger area then Ang Mo Kio New Town, and was planned by the URA. Hence, the Ang Mo Kio article can talk about Ang Mo Kio as a general geographic area, the source of its name, and the history of its development. Ang Mo Kio New Town would elaborate on the town itself, describe its development and configuration, and the application of the new town planning concept. Ang Mo Kio Planning Area, on the other hand, discusses URA's planning guidelines and initiatives for that area. Hopefully, the same could be done for all other place names in Singapore when their content gets developed over time.--Huaiwei 14:07, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I think we should delete the planning area. It's just Ang Mo Kio now. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MyMemories92 (talk • contribs) 05:31, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

GRC

Shouldn't the last part about GRC be put into a separate article or something? From what I see only the last line talks about the Ang Mo Kio GRC. Hayabusa future 11:06, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

Agreed. Consider moving its to the Group Representation Constituency page.--Huaiwei 15:52, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

Name origin

Interestingly, in the article on Gutzlaff Street (Hong Kong), one notes: Before the Second World War, the lane was known as "Red-haired Dame Street" (紅毛嬌街) (i.e. Hong Mao Qiao Street). --Dpr 04:36, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

• • Yes I have heard the name used (紅毛嬌街) before the existence of Ang Mo Kio ! The reference to Hong Kong "red brothels" from Gutzlaff Street is factual and correct. However it was slightly different in the fact when used before, it was Ang-mo kio tau meaning the head of the Ang-mo bridge which really is not the locality of the present AMK or Ang Mo Kio, but that locality as I remembered was at Kampong Chia Heng just immediately where the present Novena Church at Thomson stands. However, the actual bridge is the peh kio meaning the White Bridge<in Hokkien> built near the spot where old Kampong Java and Peh Kio Community stands, It is present a small area in the vicinity of the overhead by-pass viaduct bridge crossing (Central Expressway). It is obvious that a slight different in location is a big difference and I quite sure that the origin of AMK is not from that source, though it is older. There are some Cantonese speaking laundry people residing in the 60s at Kampong Chia Heng who used to express the name (紅毛嬌街)and they were likely aware of the brothel connections! However, I still find no other sources to connect with AMK or Ang Mo Kio! I have pondered on this fact but later dismissed it altogether due insufficient data. Thanks be to User:Dpr for mentioning it !165.21.154.116 02:48, 27 September 2005 (UTC)User:Norman OhNorey196054 03:22, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
• Any other User with new info will be appreciated and if relevant I will edit or add-to-it in the article above Thks User:Norman OhNorey196054 03:32, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

    I was at university in 1970 and a friend, Martin Wi, an ethnic Chinese from SE Asia but not China, told me Ang Mo Kio or Ang Mo Kiu (he spoke it, he didn't write it) was used for 'English bastard' or 'white bastard'! I suspected the Ang may have meant it was English bastard, because so many other languages incorporate that syllable, but having read this page, that now looks wrong. And in fact, the whole thing looks wrong; Martin was pulling my leg, maybe. If any other Chinese/Hokkien speakers can confirm that, then this contribution from me can be deleted (but if it is true, perhaps it ought to go in the wikipedia entry!). Nick Barnett (talk) 12:52, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

POJ and Pinyin

This is a discussion to decide whether we should specifically state that POJ is for Hokkien, and Pinyin is for Standard Mandarin in the inforbox. [1] or whether these are unnecessary [2].

I feel that it is not necessary because POJ is predominantly used for Hokkien, and Pinyin is predominantly used for Standard Mandarin around the world. Also, in Singapore, Pinyin is used only for Standard Mandarin. This level of details is not necessary, especially in the inforbox. Otherwise, we have to do the same for English, Malay, Tamil, eg. "English" has to change to "Standard English", etc. --Vsion 19:26, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Given my deletion of the said entries, I too disagree with their inclusion. The entries made are for the romanised writtern term, and not the spoken.--Huaiwei 19:31, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

We cannot assume most readers already know Pinyin is for Standard Mandarin, and Pe̍h-oē-jī is for Min Nan (or specifically, the Taiwanese dialect of Min Nan) when they're reading. The picture is further complicated by the fact that Pinyin is also used by other languages; and Pe̍h-oē-jī is also used by Hakka, as well as the aboriginal languages on Taiwan.

As for the need to specify it's Standard Mandarin, I suppose this is to acknowledge the fact that different divisions and dialects of Mandarin may not be mutually intelligible. The following Pinyin romanisation represent only the pronunciation in Standard Mandarin. — Instantnood 19:46, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Singapore speaks Standard Mandarin? I am not so sure about that, for if so, we wont be getting brickbats from Mainlanders for our "low quality" brand of Mandarin. :D Meanwhile, all users have pointed out that you cannot assume readers will not be aware that these articles are refering to Mandarin and Hokkien respectively. We do not see you adding Mandarin etc to every single Pinyin romanisation across wikipedia, does it, so if it is as neccesary as to justify your destructive behavior, mind telling us why you are not doing it in other articles?--Huaiwei 05:37, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Avenues

Can't figure out what is this section trying to put across. Definitely something that needs to be improved. unkx80 12:55, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

And on a side note, is it my poor map reading skills or does AMK Avenue 7 mysteriously not exist? Secretss 3:52, 4 April 2009 (SST)

Untitled November 2007

There are maps that actually states "ANG MO KIA" in dicating a place between thomson and AMK which can be found in national Archive. Its amazing that the person who wrote about ang mo kio has no knowlege of this. It is believed that Thomson himself was the ANG MO KIA. ct--116.197.242.212 14:44, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Untitled December 2009

Had deleted Townsville Primary thread from the Ang Mo Kio page, had opened another wikipedia page for Townsville Primary School instead. Thanks. -- MyMemories92 (20 Dec 09 - 1:22pm GMT+8)

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Is "Lady Jennifer Windsor" a hoax?

There's a lengthy, unsourced sob story in the article about a "Lady Jennifer Windsor" who supposedly was the ang moh of Ang Mo Kio, but I've been unable to find any evidence not copied directly from WP that a "Lady Jennifer Windsor", much less a "Lord Windsor", ever lived in Singapore. Singapore Infopedia and Google Books pre-1950 both draw complete blanks. On this basis, I'm going to nuke the section entirely unless there's evidence to the contrary. Jpatokal (talk) 09:39, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

This edit in 2008 by a short-lived user with a track record of dubious contributions appears to be the sole source here. Jpatokal (talk) 09:48, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

@Jpatokal: There was an infotainment show (in Chinese) on Singapore's Chinese TV channel about the origins and it mentioned about the same story. An expert, which I forgot his area/expertise, was going through the various possible sources of the names. Of course, it is a bit recent and if I remembered correctly, it is said to be a myth. As it is so recent, it could have based off the wikipedia content as well. Regardless of the conclusion, is it worth hunting for it? --Justanothersgwikieditor (talk) 01:49, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

Yes, the Wikipedia "info" has made its way into many places after 2008, but I'm looking for any sources that predate it. Jpatokal (talk) 02:49, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

@Justanothersgwikieditor: I don't suppose you'd remember the channel/date/title/anything about that show? I found this from Channel 8, but it doesn't mention the myth. Jpatokal (talk) 14:08, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

I've removed the Lady Windsor content. There are similar issues with the section on Thomson, which are also unsourced and added by the same user: [3] [4] Jpatokal (talk) 04:20, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

@Jpatokal: I believed it is on Channel U where it is between a host and some celebrity guests and then the various possible origins is showing video clips of a guy talking about it. Title may be with the words 红点. Might be very specific, it is likely broadcast on a Friday evening at 8 pm. I checked today schedule but its definitely changed for tonight. Unfortunately a quick check with my family seems that I am having false memories. They remember the show but could not remember any specifics about channel, language and when. The format of the show remains the same just other details wrong. --Justanothersgwikieditor (talk) 01:21, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Someone showed me this after a few questions and the record date is 1996! Need to find a free copy to watch! --Justanothersgwikieditor (talk) 01:54, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Here's another TV show with some good history covering most options in the article and then some. No mention of our Lady though! Jpatokal (talk) 14:21, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

@Jpatokal: Nice find and this is the show I watched~! So Lady is on my books as of now, fictional! --Justanothersgwikieditor (talk) 08:55, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

@Jpatokal and Justanothersgwikieditor: by googling the exact text (I did "links the western part of the current Ang Mo Kio estate to the Thomson Estate") added by that edit, google shows only 3 results. Only 1 from before 2008: https://sgforums.com/forums/8/topics/337945/ .

Pay attention to the peculiarity. Michaelzhang68 made the forum post at 21 Nov 08, 22:05. If this was SGT, then it was 14:05 UTC. Paulchen68 created account at 23:38, 21 November 2008 and edited at 23:45, UTC, which was 07:45 22 Nov SGT.

Other forum users were also making fun of the original post. (If you wanna decipher the Chinese gibberish code, save it in ascii txt and then view it in unicode encoding, then the Chinese text should be displayed correctly.) The wiki edit came after many forum users joked about the story.

I say it's a blatant hoax.--RZuo (talk) 19:55, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

Nice detective work! Up next, figuring out whether Thomson really had red hair and built any bridges in the area. Jpatokal (talk) 03:34, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

User:Jq 1988's edits introducing the Thomson story doesnt seem to be well documented either. This time I tried googling ("facilitate logistic transportation to the nearby British military bases at Seletar") ("logistic transportation" "Seletar" "Caucasian Bridge"), no results prior to 2009 could be found.

However, try searching ("Thomson" "Ang Mo Kio") in google books, here is a list of all references I could find:

Pre 2009

1. David Brazil (1991). Street Smart Singapore. ISBN 9789812040657. This book has a whole chapter How Ang Mo Kio Got Its Name, but I cant access it.
2. Sumiko Tan (1999). Home, Work, Play ISBN 9789810417062.
3. Mark Lewis (2003). The Rough Guide to Singapore. p.85. ISBN 9781843530756 https://books.google.de/books?id=mRkgkUdWn9wC&lpg=PA85&dq=%22Thomson%22%20%22Ang%20Mo%20Kio%22&pg=PA85#v=onepage&q=%22Thomson%22%20%22Ang%20Mo%20Kio%22&f=false This says AMK refers to JT Thomson.

Post 2009

1. Victor R Savage, Brenda Yeoh (2013). Singapore Street Names: A Study of Toponymics. p.19. ISBN 9789814484749 https://books.google.de/books?id=DTOJAAAAQBAJ&lpg=PA19&dq=%22Thomson%22%20%22Ang%20Mo%20Kio%22&pg=PA19#v=onepage&q=%22Thomson%22%20%22Ang%20Mo%20Kio%22&f=false . I quote, "Early reference to Ang Mo Kio is found in Thomson's 1849 report on Singapore's agriculture. This New Town is located in the mid-northern part of the island. The Chinese name, amokiah, or Ang Mo Kio, literally means 'red hair bridge', a reference to the Europeans (derogatorily known as red-haired devils). The bridge in question was built by J.T. Thomson at Thomson Road... SOURCE: Ramachandran, 1969; Thomson, 1849a". (I cant see the whole book and cant find out what this Ramachandran 1969 source is.)
2. Yew Peng Ng (2017). What's In The Name? How The Streets And Villages In Singapore Got Their Names. p.72. ISBN 9789813221475 https://books.google.de/books?id=cpA4DwAAQBAJ&lpg=PA72&dq=%22Thomson%22%20%22Ang%20Mo%20Kio%22&pg=PA72#v=onepage&q=%22Thomson%22%20%22Ang%20Mo%20Kio%22&f=false . I quote, "Ang Mo Kio is a transcription of the Hokkien name for this area. "Ang Mo" means red hair literally and was colloquial name for a Caucasian or white man. "Kio" is a bridge in Hokkien, The white man's bridge was the bridge built by J T Thomson (Chief Surveyor, Singapore, 1841-1853) located at the junction of Upper Thomson Road and Ang Mo Kio Avenue 1. Besides Ang Mo Kio village (named in 1938), Ang Mo Kio as a district existed in official maps as "Amokiah" and "Ang Mo Kio" in 1873 and 1885 respectively. "Ang Mo Kio area" appeared in press reports as early as 1855... Source: ST, 1855. 1.2:5; SFP, 1938.8.12:3; ST, 1977.3.25:17; NAS, TM000003l; NAS, SP006819". (I suppose the sources are newspapers Straits Times and Singapore Free Press? SP006819 is "Map of the Island of Singapore and its Dependencies, 1873, by F A McNair". This book mentions Ramachandran too, and his/her initial is "S Ramachandran", but I still cant see the full list of references.)

This investigation needs someone with access to these books to finish.--RZuo (talk) 10:39, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

I saw a claim that this story is in this 2011 book [5] but I can't access it to verify. Ping User:Jpatokal who noted the error in the book: [6]. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:31, 24 October 2021 (UTC)