Talk:Northeastern United States/Archive 2

This is an archive of past discussions about Northeastern United States. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Archive 5

Maryland, Virginia, West Virginia, Ohio

It seems that some people are almost pushing an agenda to have these states included in the northeast. What's the big deal? I'm sorry, but Virginia, including Washington D.C., and West Virginia are certainly not part of the northeast. Ohio is certainly a mid-western state. Parts of Maryland could *MAYBE* be considered northeastern, but I would suggest that Maryland is also not part of the northeast. The Census Bureau definition is valid: Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania. Xfatmoe (talk) 17:02, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

The Northeast megalopolis extends through Washington D.C. or even Richmond according to the recent Virginia Tech studies (see megapolitan area) in spite of the difference with traditional cultural definitions. On the other hand, western Pennsylvania and New York are closer to the Midwest in urban connectivity and dialect. (e.g. Inland Northern American English) So the best definition depends on what field you are talking about. --JWB (talk) 18:10, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

I respect your viewpoint, but I must argue that you're pulling at strings. I believe that even taking into account abstract ideas such as "megapolitan areas," most people would not consider cities in southern states, like Richmond, are part of the northeast while western Pennsylvania and New York are mid-western. Upon further thinking, I would actually argue to include Delaware in the northeast region, because it is considered above the Mason-Dixon Line, which has traditionally symbolized a demarcation between the Northern United States and the Southern United States. Again, I could see an argument being made for Maryland, but Virginia is definitely southern-Atlantic. Also, I cannot agree that New York or Pennsylvania could be considered mid-western, especially when Missouri is often considered central mid-west.Xfatmoe (talk) 18:37, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Megapolitan areas are not "abstract ideas" but rather very concrete analyses of the movement of goods and people within a given area. Even more to the point, if you've lived in and traveled around the Northeast Megalopolis you would know that there are no clear lines where one metro ends and another begins. Trying to separate Baltimore and DC from Philadelphia and NYC is more ludicrous than trying to say that San Diego and LA are in different regions. In any case, I'm not sure what bearing a cultural survey taken 250 years ago (mason-dixon) to delineate attitudes toward slavery has to do with the present day economic and cultural realities. It was done well before the fall of slavery, before the industrial revolution, before the advent of high-speed rail, automobiles and the interstate highway system. Likewise, what does it matter what the Census says about it? The FBI and EPA say something different. The also think that the Virgin Islands are part of the Northeast. Western PA and Western NY have far more in common, culturally and economically, with Ohio and with each other than they do with NYC or Philadelphia. Delaware is clearly part of the Northeast. People there watch TV broadcast from Philadelphia, listen to a lot of radio from Philadelphia, have commuter trains to Philadelphia and New Castle County, where most Delawareans live, is part of the Philadelphia MSA. Metro Baltimore and metro DC, where most Marylanders live, is inextricably linked to the rest of the mid-atlantic. Anyone who has driven on I-95 or taken Amtrak or Megabus or Boltbus or any of the Chinatown buses is acutely aware of this. Even for the best of ears, trying to distinguish a South Jersey accent from a Maryland accent can be impossible. Ancient maps and ideas are just that. The flow of goods and people is what matters and by any measure DE and MD are linked to the northeast much more than to the southeast. While one can make persuasive arguments that parts of Western MD and the Eastern Shore are more culturally southern one can also make persuasive arguments that Northern Virginia counties such as Arlington, Fairfax, Loudon, etc are more culturally mid-atlantic. `69.142.76.165 (talk) 20:59, 11 January 2010 (UTC) JRes

I always find this amusing. To me Northeast is synonymous with New England. In other words, Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts, Rhode Island and Connecticut. If I'm feeling charitable I include New York. Nothing south of New York should be called "North" anything IMHO. That being said, it doesn't really matter what our opinions are, as North East is an established region per the U.S. Census Bureau.

Mattlach (talk) 19:45, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

I am a CT native and not a transplant with propaganda for Wikipedia. The northeast has always been known around here to include everything from Maine to D.C. - never excluding Deleware and almost always including Maryland, although many joke that MD is the south. PA we have a hard time calling the NE or at least the east coast. Most of PA seems more related to the mid-west. In CT, we do not even consider ourselves as bing in New England. We prefer to use northeast while New England states prefer New England. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.28.89.187 (talk) 16:46, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Extended content

Maryland is definitely a part of the Northeast. I'm getting sick of the Mason-Dixon line being the end all say all on the division between the two regions. The line was made in the 1700's and was more about a boundary dispute between MD and PA! How is that relative or useful to todays society? Baltimore and Philadelphia are always linked together as very similar cities - and I agree with above - Philly, Baltimore, and S. Jersey dialects are almost identical. If you want to make this article about the census designation, then fine, but take Delaware off the map too. I'm sorry the Eastern Shore of MD has farms, but this doesn't make Maryland a southern state. The culture/geography of the Eastern shore is very tightly similar to rural DE and NJ. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.67.22.116 (talk) 18:50, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

The culture of the Eastern Shore is NOTHING like the culture of South Jersey! That is such a ridiculous statement and you have destroyed your credibility. I would like to invite everyone reading to take a trip to Maryland's Eastern shore - spend some time in Harriet Tubman's hometown of Cambridge and perhaps enjoy some crabbing in Crisfield. Then, feel free to explore South Jersey and let me know if the Eastern Shore of Maryland is "Northern". What a ridiculous comment. I am someone who has lived on Maryland's Eastern Shore my whole life and if you came here, I, along with everyone else here, would laugh in your face.

There was never an argument being made for the region of South Jersey to be likened to Maryland's Eastern shore. The term "South Jersey" was specifically NOT used as it encompasses far too large of an area and diversity in culture. When people think South Jersey, they think Philly suburbs and Atlantic City - that is not what I was referencing. The term "rural Jersey" was the intended message. I grew up in St. Micheals and have found that driving down towards Cape May in Jersey is very similar to a trip down Route 50 through Talbot and Dorcester counties - farmlands, marshlands, simple, laid back, and some similar coastal towns. Obviously, nothing compares directly to Chesapeake culture - it's highly unique and precious and I would never pin it as either southern or northern - it is what it is. I agree with you that at first glance the remark "The eastern shore of Maryland is like South Jersey" is a little ridiculous - please remember that was never my argument. However, if I wanted to make that argument, it wouldn't be too difficult - in addition to everything I've already said, Cecil County is a part of the Philadelphia Metropolitan Statistical area, suburb of Philly, as are parts of south Jersey that border on rural areas much like those of the Eastern shore - you'd be surprised how similar Elkton is to other S. Jersey towns, not to mention the South Jersey Shore being just like the stretch from Ocean City, MD up through Rehoboth and Bethany - not a fantastic argument, and I probably wouldn't make it, but it could be done. (You didn't bring this up, but for the record, the argument that Delaware and Maryland's Eastern shore are not similar simply cannot be made, Delmarva is Delmarva - obviously less populated as you get down into the Virginia part, but still pretty consistent.) I apologize if I offended you, there is pretty much nothing that can be like the old waterman towns like Tilghman's Island or Deal Island or the dissapearing marshlands of Dorchester county. Places like Cambridge, Oxford, St. Michael's, even up in Chestertown are uniquely Maryland/Chesapeake and I never meant to take away from that. I simply meant to propose the question of why certain things like farmlands and low population density have to be indicative of a southern state when undeniably northern states less than 30 miles away have those things as well.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.179.30.197 (talk) 01:45, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Well worded argument. I was the poster of the previous argument before it. But, it is exactly one of the last points you made about the unique qualities of watermen's towns and Chesapeake culture that I was getting at. This is something unique and something treasured by my people. It is sad to see much of the development and loss of tradition as the years go by. That said, the Chesapeake culture that you speak of is actually an important part of SOUTHERN culture. And people around here do not like to be told otherwise. Especially myself, who resides a few miles from Harriet Tubman's birth site. Parts of Maryland, along the I-95 corridor are Northeast - but that is because our Chesapeake culture is being eroded, and, therefore, Southern tradition. It is much easier for the tradition and culture to bleed southward from an industrialized, highly-populated place like the Northeast, than it is for rural and Southern culture to bleed northward from sparsely populated regions. Maryland and Maryland tradition is Southern, so I will vehemently disagree with you there. Your original assertion about people believing the Eastern Shore of Maryland is southern just because it is rural is false. History (and the culture of natives in current times!) proves that assertion wrong. South central Pennsylvania is rural, yet nobody claims it is southern. The Eastern Shore of Maryland is a large area, and almost no one here thinks of Cecil County as the Eastern Shore. Central and Lower Eastern Shore is undeniably southern. Of course Cecil County appears not to be- it is a few miles from Philly and NJ! But you cannot argue the same for Cecil County the same as you can for Somerset. Also, it is undeniable that the Eastern Shore of Maryland is way more similar to the Eastern Shore of Virginia than it is to rural New Jersey. So, if you are going by association, the argument still does not hold water that MD's ES is Northeastern. The culture/geography of the Eastern Shore is more tightly linked to that of the Chesapeake areas of Virginia, and not to DE and NJ as you stated. That is for sure! You state that MD's ES is influenced by Delaware, a northern state in your view, yet you fail to recognize it is also influenced by Virginia, a southern state- the third part of DelmarVA. You state "why certain things like farmlands and low population density have to be indicative of a southern state when undeniably northern states less than 30 miles away have those things as well." When did I say the Eastern Shore is southern because of farmland and low population? Sure, that adds to making it more Southern, but I am arguing that it has SOUTHERN CULTURE (Chesapeake culture, the roots of slavery including the fields toiled by Harriet Tubman and Frederick Douglass, Large Plantations still preserved throughout) and SOUTHERN LAND (The Chesapeake, Bald Cypress, Loblolly forests, etc.) In my opinion water doesn't hold trying to say that The Eastern Shore of Maryland has more in common with rural New Jersey (the north) than with Virginia (the south), of which it shares a the same landmass, delMARVA, and culture of the Chesapeake. The statement you made, therefore, "Maryland is definitely part of the northeast", is not credible.

Alright, I see your point and thank you for allowing me to clarify what I had said before. To clear up one more thing, I wasn't saying that YOU had said the rural aspect of Maryland's ES and low population density was why you thought it was southern - I was discussing my original reason for posting, and that is that A LOT of people go around saying "Maryland's Eastern Shore is southern because of how agricultural it is, etc." I don't enjoy that comment at all, it just sounds uneducated and ignorant. Again, I know that wasn't anything you had said. Also, I must say that I was not surprised when I saw you had written that most people on the Eastern Shore don't consider Cecil County a part of it - :-) I had anticipated that argument, and I kind of have to agree! hah! But it was worth a shot! It is definitely true that Maryland holds a lot in common with Virginia because of the Chesapeake. I am aware that that tie goes all the way back to Colonial times. Maryland and Virginia both were labeled Southern Colonies, but a special distinction for them was made as Chesapeake Colonies simply because it altered our economies dramatically from that of the north or the south, and I also agree with you that even today, we still have much in common with Virginia for this reason. There is no way to actually settle this debate simply because it hasn't been done for 200 years and it's not about to happen via wikipedia chat. In all honesty, I'm strongly in favor of the mid-atlantic label before anything else. I just don't like to be excluded from the Northeast simply because people let the Eastern Shore represent us. And vice versa, I'm sure the ES doesn't like to be excluded from the Southeast simply because people let Baltimore represent the state. My supporting arguments for Maryland being the Northeast do not lie within the ES being a Northeastern region - I only wanted to say that it shouldn't be the reason why we're excluded because plenty of Northeastern States have their equivalents of "Eastern Shores", or things and cultures that are southern. I disagree with you by saying that nobody claims south central PA as southern, because people most certainly do. Given it is usually rednecks, but I've seen it - the confederate flag flying high and everything - no one ever argues it though because Pennsylvania has never been up for debate. I lived in South Carolina for four years and I must say, THAT is southern in ways that neither Maryland or Virginia are. I also discovered that that part of the south (NC down), doesn't really want us. I've found that a lot of southerners are beginning to disown Virginia as well. However, the same argument goes in reverse - once you begin to get up to the New York area, no one there will claim Maryland as part of the North. I suppose in Maryland, if you're a yankee or a southerner is your own personal choice - you can make an argument for yourself either way. I'm very proud of Maryland's diversity and our dispositions. I've read before that a large consensus in Maryland during the civil war was that they didn't like the South seceding, but also didn't like the North's attitude towards the South. Talk about level-headed and well thought out. I just don't think it's fair to ignore Maryland's ties with the Northeast simply because it also has ties with parts of the South, and I suppose vice versa. I apologize that this wasn't as organized and thought out as well as my previous post. Anyway, I appreciate the discussion and the opportunity to redeem myself and not appear completely insane! Any Marylander is a friend of mine. :-)

This has been a great chat - and very productive! Sane points have been made by us both. I agree with you though - whenever I was in school and whenever I had to say a "region", I would say Mid-Atlantic. I think there are two Mid-Atlantics: the census-defined region which is a subset of the Northeast (NY, NJ, PA) or the colloquial one that makes more sense to me VA, DC, MD, DE, PA (NJ & New York has always been Northeast to me. In my family it has always been that when someone said someone was a Yankee or from the "northeast" we would always think New York, or sometimes Massachusetts). I would say that Virginia and Maryland add the Southern influences, PA and DE a more neutral transition zone, and NJ and NY add the true "Yankee" influences. Taken as one, it really is a transition zone, with Pennsylvania doing a good job at being the center of this cultural variation. I have spent a large amount of time in the true Northeast and it seems you have spent a good amount of time in the Deep South - so I believe that gives us our individual opinions to which region MD is more closely tied. I can see that parts of the state are more northern-influenced, and parts are more southern-influenced and I am glad most people just say Mid-Atlantic because I'd like to think we have the best of both regions! Can't wait for crabbin season to come into full bloom : p Hope we have a higher yield this year!

Me too, man, me too! I just got a new fishing boat that I'm fixing up and I can't wait to get out there. I'm also ready for some crab feasts. And I agree, this was a great conversation. I really like hearing opinions from other Marylanders that actually care about this topic and have researched it. I really am tired of hearing, "Maryland is the south because we're below the mason-dixon line". That immediately tells me that person knows one simple rule-of-thumb history fact and they haven't cared to research it beyond that. Same with, "Maryland is the north because we stayed with the Union." Those remarks aren't what someone thinks, it's just what they've been told and I have no interest in it. Anyway, just out of curiosity - what town are you from and what is your dialect? I spent a lot of time in St. Michael's growing up and other Eastern Shore places (my Dad and I used to take trips all over there and go fishing), but I actually lived most of my life in Anne Arundel County, south of Bmore and north of Annapolis. To say the least, I'm fluent in Baltimorese, which most of the time I'm proud of and other times, well, not so proud of - hah! The other part of Maryland we haven't discussed at all is Western. I know it's a whole other monster, one of which I know least about, but from what I've gathered they embody the Appalachian culture and Garrett and Alleghany counties have a pretty strong affinity towards Pittsburgh - seeing as how it's only 90 some miles away in some places. Thoughts? And yeah, we do have the best of both worlds, the greatest state in the nation - easily.

I am originally from Baltimore, spent summers on the Shore with my grandparents in Crisfield and I live not far from Cambridge (for the past 20 years). I work in Annapolis - so I wouldn't say I have a specific regional dialect from an area of MD - moreso a hodgepodge of Baltimore & Eastern Shore tidewater. My brother has a very thick Baltimore accent that I can hear and identify, after him being there all 32 years of his life & I guess I can hear it because of living over here for so long. I think in MD regardless of region, all natives are pretty much guaranteed to pronounce long "O"s - I'm sure you know what I mean by that. I really have no experience whatsoever with Western MD - I couldn't tell ya. My parents bought us camping someplace around Hagerstown back in the 80s, but I don't remember much - just the old trains. Anyone I've met from that area, though, tell me that there's really no discernible difference between Western Maryland and West Virginia. I am sure they all share a common culture of Appalachia with the nearby parts of PA. We do have the best state (so long as the suburban nightmare with transplants not interested in native MD culture doesn't spread from MoCo & Prince Georges) and I would be glad to argue it with any other state because we have everything I can think of, with the exception of desert - which I believe is a welcomed omission : p

Honestly, I'm thrilled that D.C. is so close and accessible - you know how that is, it's really cool and is an awesome place to take guests that are visiting. However, I DO NOT like what it is doing to the area and the culture. When I'm away on a trip for whatever reason - I will sometimes, by chance, meet a stranger from Maryland and inquire as to what part they are from. If they reply with "Bethesda" or "Greenbelt" or "Rockville", etc. - I usually say, "No, no, no, - you're from D.C. - that's not Maryland." It's just not. And it's unfortunate because D.C.'s sprawl and growth is having a bigger and bigger effect every year on the surrounding area. I'm very worried about Anne Arundel county becoming much like PG and MoCo. Baltimore really needs to pull itself together in the next decade here or else that city will fall into shadow underneath D.C., much like Wilmington, DE did under Philly. If there isn't an influence to counteract D.C.'s growth, then the entire western shore of Maryland will eventually be one giant suburb of D.C. I know Virginians feel the same way about Alexandria/Arlington - the growth is out of control. And yes, I know exactly what you mean by the, not only long, but frontal/nasal "O"! :-) In my experience, I've heard that nasal "O" sound all the way from the Norfolk/Chesapeake area of VA up to Philly and some of south Jersey - William Labov at UPenn actually attributed it to what he calls a part of the "mid atlantic dialect". How appropriate :-). You commute all the way from Dorchester to Annapolis each day? Please tell me you do it by boat - hah!

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.179.30.197 (talk) 07:50, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

To those who claim that Pittsburgh has far more in common with the Midwest than the rest of the Northeast, I must respectfully disagree. Many studies including this one from Gastil put Pittsburgh in the same cultural region as South Jersey http://faculty.smu.edu/RKEMPER/anth_3346/ANTH3346_Maps.htm#GASTIL%20NORTHEASTERN%20CULTURAL%20REGIONS. Additionally, the prevalence of row housing in Pittsburgh is a staple of the older coastal cities, including Boston, NYC, Philadelphia, Baltimore and DC. The very large percentage of Italians (about 16% in the CSA), Catholics and lack of Evangelicals in Pittsburgh, in addition to traditional connections to Philadelphia (e.g. PA canal, Steagles, Pirates-Phillies and Pens-Flyers rivalry) again offer significant evidence that Pittsburgh is more Northeastern. Concerning language issues, most who have studied the Pittsburgh accent recognize that it is more in common with "Highland Southern" accent of W. VA. and other areas of Appalachia than with Midwest (as though either the Midwest or Northeast is a homogeneous region in that respect is absurd). Yet, certain words such as "hoagie" are commonly used in Pittsburgh, Phila. and NJ, but rarely in other parts of the country. Anyone who thinks Pittsburgh is clearly Midwestern should provide actual examples of this and not merely state opinion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.109.249.116 (talk) 01:36, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

I think that the biggest example of Pittsburgh being mid-western is - it is practically next to Ohio! It is no where near the east. People on the east do not consider it the east either. Why are the Browns and the Steelers rivals? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.28.89.187 (talk) 16:54, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Major cleanup needed

This article is full of unsourced assertion, opinion, and peacock language. I propose that this article should focus on the census bureau definition (so that statistics can be validated), possibly with some reference to nearby areas that some claim are part of the region (if sourced). Then we can cut down all of the opinion and leave only the statistics and facts that are sourced. Editors can add new sections when they have the RSs to support them. Anybody have thoughts on this? Hoppingalong (talk) 15:51, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

As part of the cleanup, I propose removing the third paragraph in the lead as irrlevant, original research, and not properly sourced. Here it is:

Other states are sometimes included in the definition of Northeastern United States. The International Nuclear Safety Center included on a map of nuclear reactors in the Northeastern United States those reactors that are located in Virginia, Maryland, Delaware, Ohio, Michigan, and Ontario, Canada.[6] The National Assessment Synthesis Team of the U.S. Global Change Research Program included West Virginia and Maryland in the Northeastern United States in its analysis of climate change in a 2001 report.[7] The same report included Virginia in the Southeastern United States.[8] In a 1961 book, French geographer Jean Gottman described what he called the Northeast megalopolis to include as far south as Washington, D.C. within the megalopolis, though he did not define the Northeastern United States.[9] The Census Bureau classifies Delaware, Maryland, and Virginia, as part of the South Atlantic region,[1] part of the Southern United States.

Hoppingalong (talk) 22:29, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

I just removed the paragrph in this edit per this proposal and, in addition, because of the various other objections to including these states on the talk page above. The map is still shaded and should be changed. Hoppingalong (talk) 03:53, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Non-consensus? Seriously? Your decisions to chop out all the disputed states from the article had [WP:DRNC|equally no consensus]]. As I stated in an edit summary, Wikipedia should be a neutral source of information and should explain the disputed point at which the northeast becomes the south, not just make the Census Bureau the end-all, be-all authority over the article. Different government agencies can't even come to a consensus on where the northeast ends!

If you revert an edit because I need to "discuss first" before editing and can't give a specific reason as to why you reverted, you might be unintentionally owning the article. …Grayshi ^{talk ■ my contribs} 17:44, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Read this talk page. Looks at the edits made by several editors since and while I was working this material. The paragraph I removed with this edit doesn't even support your desired inclusion of certain states, unless you want to systhesize the various souces that use different definitions (which is OR). Find RS sources that talk about this "dispute" and let's talk about them here. Hoppingalong (talk) 17:49, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Article Inconsistency

Maryland and Delaware can easily be argued to be a part of the Northeast as well as easily argued to be a part of the Southeast. So explain this to me...

1. Maryland and Delaware are NOT included on the Northeastern United States page.
2. Maryland and Delaware are NOT included on the Southeastern United States page.

However, the "East Coast of the United States" page includes MD and DE 100% and so does the "Northeast megalopolis" page.

NOW, the "Southern United States" page HALF includes MD and DE because they are both, in someway, a part of the southeast - so the what's the problem here on this page? Why are MD and DE not at least HALF included?

Currently, according to Wikipedia articles, MD and DE are NOT Northeastern or Southeastern, but 1/2 "Southern" and 1/2 nothing else. Fix it. The content of this article does not reflect the given title. Either you change the content to include MD and DE in SOMEWAY as they are both in SOMEWAY a part of the Northeast, or you change the title to "Northeastern United States Census Region". This shouldn't even be a discussion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Oldlinestate (talk • contribs) 09:39, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

If you would take the time to realize there is such a thing as "Mid-Atlantic" on Wikipedia, you will see that both Maryland and Delaware are considered the epicenter of this region in that article. Maryland and Delaware are NOT officially part of the historical Mid-Atlantic, but it has been the consensus recently because in modern times they fit that definition, in part, culturally. There is no way they can be considered Northeastern, when in reality they are not even technically part of the Mid-Atlantic, but of the Southeast. Some people have a hard time saying New Jersey is in the Northeast, but just in the Mid-Atlantic. The majority of Americans think of New England and New York when the term "Northeast" is mentioned. This article does not need to be changed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.244.92.60 (talk) 16:29, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

You are very mistaken in saying that Delaware is not historically a part of the Mid-Atlantic. Dating back to colonial times, the Middle Colonies included New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, and Delaware. It used to be a part of Pennsylvania, is above the Mason-Dixon line, remained a part of the Union, and today is a part of the Northeast megalopolis and its northern third is a suburb to Philadelphia. It quite obviously has some relationship to the Northeast. In addition, your claim that the "majority of Americans think" the Northeast is New England and New York is a highly unsupported statement and lacks any credibility. --oldlinestate 02:08, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Actually, sir, you may want to brush up on your history. Delaware was most definitely part of the Old South and a Southern colony. Hell, even Wikipedia's own article on The Old South shows that - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_south

Sure, it has HEAVY Mid-Atlantic and Northeastern influence because of its obvious location, but undeniably it has a Southern (more accurately Border South, when talking post-Antebellum) history. New Castle County, with its proximity to Philadelphia, reflects your argument most, but the state as a whole does not. Every observation and assertion made cannot change the historical fact that Delaware, Maryland, West Virginia, Kentucky, and Missouri all were solidly Southern at some point in their history and still reflect cultural ties to the South that you will not find in solid Mid-Atlantic and Northeastern states. What about West Virginia? Many people see that as a Northeastern state. Its northern panhandle extends to a latitude equal to Northern NJ! West Virginia split from Virginia during the War because of conflicting lifestyles and views- becoming its own Union state. According to your theory, we must stripe WV as well as MD and DE.... where does it end?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.244.92.60 (talk) 00:50, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Also, almost every person I have met or almost anyone I have seen discuss the matter agrees with my observation that New England and New York comprise the classic Northeast. Perhaps I don't have a poll telling me that, but I have common sense and observation experience. You also don't have data to support the assertion that most Americans do NOT believe what I said. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.244.92.60 (talk) 00:54, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

I know my history and if you check any reliable source, not just Wikipedia, you will see that Delaware was a Middle Colony, not a Southern Colony. Wikipedia's article on the Old South is not credible - especially because Wikipedia's page on the Middle Colonies DOES mention Delaware as a Middle Colony. The Wikipedia database is full of inconsistencies like that thus your "source" cannot be taken seriously. Like I said, check any reliable source on the History of the US - Delaware was a Middle Colony. Here's one just to get you started... http://www.usahistory.info/. Secondly, I don't care what you do with West Virginia, I was not concerned with that state at all. I was discussing the reasons as to why I thought Maryland and Delaware should be striped - I said nothing about WV and do not wish or care to discuss my opinions on the matter. If someone else would like to fight for that representation, then they can take that up with you. Thirdly, it is correct to say that I do not have data or poll information supporting the idea that "nobody thinks" New England and NY exclusively comprise the Northeast, but I never tried to make that argument as it, quite obviously, can be easily negated - so I don't understand why you even brought that up.--oldlinestate 02:03, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

To suggest that Delaware was in no way a southern colony is ignorant. It was solidly part of the Old South for a portion of its history. Find all the sources you want, but you could find just as many to match that show Delaware as part of the Old South. And I mention West Virginia because it is in the same situation as Maryland, my state, and Delaware. They are all border states. How can you attack the latter and not the former? Why would you be out to re-categorize states that clearly have southern features, and not a state that clearly has Northern features (Pittsburgh's culture in the Northern Panhandle) and that protrudes MILES more north into the Northeast than either of the two states you mention? You do not "wish or care to discuss [your] opinions" on WV because you obviously have an agenda towards rewriting history for DE and MD alone. Both are fully colored on the Mid-Atlantic page, and with good reason - because they represent the modern culture-based notion that Mid-Atlantic means those states situated around the Chesapeake, and not just those Northeastern states that are not in New England. Making the argument that they are in the modern definition of Mid-Atlantic is plausible, but in the Northeast is not. Try coming to the lower Eastern Shore or Southern Maryland and run it by us life-long residents that we are in the northeast - it would be a funny sight as you stand amongst the loblolly forests, cypress swamps, and the site of Harriet Tubman's plantation as people laugh in your face. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.244.92.60 (talk) 14:14, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

I believe West Virginia to be a part of the Northeast - I just simply was not discussing that right now for two reasons. A.) I'm not from West Virginia and have no personal connection to it or have enough personal experience (a factor that clearly weighs heavily into this for you as you are personally from the eastern shore and believe one can not make a decision about MD until they go there), B.) I am from Maryland/Delaware area and understand it better C.) I'm sure there are other people out there who ARE from WV and have more right arguing its position. I understand a lot of Delaware's cultural ties to the South, I won't deny that - aside from being a part of PA it was first a part of MD, it was a slave state, they did not vote for Lincoln in the 1860 election, their industry was pretty heavy in agriculture, etc. I won't tell you are incorrect on that. Please remember that all I was originally trying to do was state that there is a lot of inconsistency among different Wikipedia articles. I just got caught up in the argument about DE as a middle colony because it was definitely in all the history books as one. To clarify, its frustrating that some articles don't consider MD or DE "northern enough" or "southern enough" to include them and so we get left out all together (ie. "Northeastern United States" and "Southeastern United States"). And if MD and DE were to be in some way included on this page, that by no means negates their Southeastern ties. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Oldlinestate (talk • contribs) 16:59, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Are you a native of Maryland? I am, and so has been my family (Native American and post-Revolutionary British). I, along with other natives, get very upset when transplants (the majority of our state's population today) try to assert that Maryland is Northern,because they come from the North. When in reality, it only appears so today because those same transplants have diluted the native Southern culture. I disagree that we should leave WV out of the mix. If anything, it and Delaware have more merit being on the map as part Northeastern than Maryland does. I do not know as much about WV as MD either, obviously, but I think if you want consistency in articles, we need to be fair and consistent. My objection with this is that if we do this change with the map, then MD and Delaware will be on all three maps as Northern, Southern, and Mid-Atlantic. Then what is a reader supposed to assume? If they are all given equal weight, nothing, then, stops a reader from being able to conclude that MD is equally Northern as it is Southern, which is not the case. It is more Southern, at least historically and in the native culture. You have to keep in mind that some classify Virginia as part of the Northeastern region, too, if we are talking about the states bordering the Northeast Corridor. Where does it end? Someone could put Maryland, Delaware, AND West Virginia in stripes (and classify that these states are only sometimes considered part of the region. I am not saying under the map someone put "MD and DE are sometimes classified within the region, and WV only occasionally" That is biased and tries to paint the idea that West Virginia is somehow more Southern than MD or DE. I have seen this done before. All three should be striped with the caption reading "MD, DE, and WV are sometimes included within the region" ) I for one, would have no objection to this. I believe that would be the most fair compromise if someone is willing to create the map.--96.244.92.60 (talk) 19:53, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Well that's the thing, the map USED to be like that and I don't understand why it was changed - I was fine with that too! I am a native Marylander and have never grown up considering myself from the South at all, nor do folks I grew up with (you can obviously guess that I am not from the Eastern Shore). I don't find the issue in people believing Maryland is equally as Northern as it is Southern because I believe that to be VERY true - in contemporary times and historically. I think DE has most business being considered in the Northeast, but I don't understand why you think WV has more claim to that than MD. In my mind, the division between north and south is the potomac river and the neutral gateway is D.C. As far as the whole "where does it end?" comment goes - it's not like all of sudden we'll be calling NC a part of the north because VA became the North because MD did - it doesn't work like that. VA and NC are undeniably Southern for a lot of reasons that Maryland is not. We're talking civil war positions, dialect regions, population, economy basis, etc. - there are other states with much more southern histories than us. Maryland has adapted to Northern culture because it was headed that way anyway, it was never overly southern to begin with. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Oldlinestate (talk • contribs) 23:31, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

I disagree, but to each his own. You are most likely basing your positions on your life led in DC's suburbs, which aren't the real Maryland anyway. West Virginia seceded from Virginia because it did not have many slaves at all, it was not more pro-Southern than Maryland. It was based on an Appalachian culture that is very independent and different than most Southern culture. Maryland was FORCED by the federal government to stay loyal to the Union. Abraham Lincoln reprimanded Governor Hicks, arrested state officials and stationed Union troops over Baltimore on Federal Hill to fire if there was a Pro-Southern uprising (as there was in Baltimore when Union troops from Massachusetts marched down Pratt Street- the first bloodshed of the Civil War). The division between North and South is the Mason-Dixon line (I know it was not intended so when created, but it came to be). Historically Maryland was definitely more Southern than Northern- without a doubt from any credible historian. All you have to do is search Google Books for "Baltimore" or "Maryland" and "South" and there will be tons of books from the 1800s onward showing you this fact. Today, I would say that Maryland is 60% Mid-Atlantic and 40% Southern. It is not Northeastern - that is a different thing from Mid-Atlantic - with which, I would agree, in today's times it fits more so than our present day concept of Southern. Northern Virginia is not undeniably Southern - it is presently about 20% Southern compared even to Southern MD. What people are noticing is our inevitable change in culture.... people associate rural areas, accents, and cooking with the South. The truth is that big cities are growing, and with that comes a culture change where people are transplants mixing up local culture, and many times not assimilating, but bringing a desire for the ways of life they left behind with them. Such is the case with the DC suburbs. 50 years ago it was almost all rural SOUTHERN farmland- both in VA and MD. Presently, it is dotted with urban centers like Columbia, Bethesda, and Arlington. Because of the location (the South), where do you think the transplants are going to come from? The North, West, and internationally. With more people come more ways of life and the native culture is pushed further and further to the fringes. The only reason Virginia is presently more culturally Southern than Maryland is because of its vast size and lack of urban centers and population density. In time, I believe this will change. Many places already label VA as Mid-Atlantic, and some as Northeastern (yes, I have seen this). So in 50 years, don't be surprised if VA is in the situation MD is in now and we are debating whether North Carolina is Mid-Atlantic. I cannot believe you are saying that MD was heading towards being Northern anyway - read what I said about what happened during the outbreak of the Civil War. It was definitely NOT heading the Northern way. It released many slaves, but was not siding with the Union. Saying that MD was "never overly southern to begin with" is a crock. It was one of THE 2 original Southern colonies- the Chesapeake colonies of MD and VA. It THRIVED off of tobacco plantations and off the backs of slaves. If you uttered that statement to Harriet Tubman, Frederick Douglass, John Wilkes Booth, Thomas Hicks, or even Lincoln himself they would think you were crazy. Lincoln even said that he was worried Maryland would join the Confederacy like the other Southern states and that if MD went so would Kentucky and Missouri. Maryland was EXTREMELY southern in the past - that is not even a debate. No crap that many states have a "much more southern history than us" - that doesn't mean MD is not Southern. Florida is so Southern in the literal sense that it is about to float into the Gulf of Mexico, yet I would debate with anyone that MD is more culturally Southern. I never claimed MD was as Southern as,say, Mississippi, but it is and always will be part of the Border South. You cannot change that, any amount of transplants cannot change that, and a Wikipedia map certainly cannot. --96.244.92.60 (talk) 01:38, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, to each his own, we'll have to agree to disagree. I hope you realize though that Maryland had already freed 50% of their slaves by the time the civil war had started, had 2/3 of their troops fight for the Union, and held conventions in Frederick where secession was voted on and LOST by a huge margin. Most Historians today contend that Maryland would never have had enough votes to secede. Maryland was put under military control more because of the severity of the consequences of secession and not because secession was all that much of a reality. Delaware was put under military control too, even after they had voted to stay a part of the Union - Lincoln just wanted to keep the pro-Confederates under control, which there were in DE and MD. MD had an abundance of Union supporters. Also, I'm not from D.C., I'm from Baltimore area and my parents are natives as well. --oldlinestate 02:23, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

You fail to mention all of the factors that made Maryland more Southern than Northern, but seeing as I have already provided a ton of them, I am sure people reading this can deduct what they will for themselves. (I just want to point out, in defense of the spirit of thousands of slaves like our own Harriet Tubman and Frederick Douglass, that Maryland became the first colony to institutionalize slavery in 1640.) I'm done with the conversation. Point being - if others don't object, someone (I don't have the tools to) should either go ahead and stripe Maryland, West Virginia, and Delaware on the map or leave it alone —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.244.92.60 (talk) 03:04, 5 May 2010 (UTC) --96.244.92.60 (talk) 03:09, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Well, you are correct in saying that you already listed a lot of Maryland's southern qualities - I am aware of them and can not deny most of them. I would never argue Maryland is not southern at all, I just believe it to be more Northern than you do, and that's cool. I agree that we don't need to discuss this anymore - we each said our piece and have provided a lot of information for other folks on here trying to figure this out. Anyway, no hard feelings and thank you for the discussion.--oldlinestate 04:24, 5 May 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Oldlinestate (talk • contribs)

I fail to see why this article was changed when it was fine for over a year. Despite a very small minority of naysayers saying otherwise, Maryland and Delaware are economically, politically, culturally, and demographically part of the Northeast. The Census Bureau's own data (on wealth, education, density, etc.) confirms it. Most other govt. agencies such as the Library of Congress, FBI, and Department of Energy, as well as private organizations, group them (and DC) in the Northeast. There are clearly some Southern ties, but about 99% of them point to either states [i]history[/i] rather than their present. Last year Maryland changed it's region in the Council of State Goverments from South to [North]East. Maybe if this article was titled "the U.S. NE in 1800" DE and MD probably couldn't even be mentioned, but this is a modern day definition. The way I, and most others, see it is that the Northeast consists of two seperate regions: New England (ME, CT, RI, MA, NH, VT) and the Mid-Atlantic (DC, DE, MD, PA, NY, NJ). The only debatable state is WV since it is dominated by a unique Appalachian culture.007bond (talk) 00:46, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Please do not fundamentally change the page and reinsert states changing the scope of the article, without any sourcing, without consensus here. Please read this talk page and the archived talk page for more on the issue. Also see the edit history over the last several years. Hoppingalong (talk) 07:58, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Atlas of Popular Culture in the Northeastern United States

Worth inclusion? Mapsax (talk) 06:32, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

Grasyshi's recent addition

This edit, despite the editor's claim otherwise, is WP:SYNTH. A statement like this needs a source that says as much, not a list of sources that "prove" the synthesized point. And the map that was reinserted is in direct contradiction to the caption and is not sourced. I will revert accordingly. Please discuss similar future additions here first or use an appropriate dispute resolution mechanism. Hoppingalong (talk) 23:36, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Now you're just being disruptive. It's apparent to me that you're just trying to push your own viewpoint that MD, DE, VA and WV are not northeastern under the guise of "WP:SYNTH". See WP:GAME #2, #6 and #7. It's common knowledge that these states are disputed as to what region they are part of, and removing every trace of them in this article leaves numerous gaps and inconsistencies in other articles. And based on this very talk page, there is consensus leaning toward including those states in the article as "disputed".

If you're unwilling to compromise and actually collaborate instead of reverting and quoting policies in bad faith, I'll go ahead and request an RFC. …Grayshi ^{talk ■ my contribs} 01:40, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

I have tried to compromise and have not sought to remove every trace of them. (I added the "definitions vary" language to the map caption, cleaned up and clarified the mention of those states in the Mid-Atlantic section, etc.). I could argue that you are just trying to push your viewpoint that MD, DE, VA, and WV are Northeastern. If it is common knowledge, cite a source for that knowledge. What you have tried to do is list a handful of sources that for whatever reason have included some or all of these states in the org's definition of Northeastern. And from those individual data points, you made a conclusion that these states are "often" included. This is textbook SYNTH.

If you had said "the National Railroad Passenger Corporation considers some of these states to be in the Northeast" you would not have a synth problem, but you would have a relevancy and WP:UNDUE problem. At one point in April, this text appeared in the article: "The International Nuclear Safety Center included on a map of nuclear reactors in the Northeastern United States those reactors that are located in Virginia, Maryland, Delaware, Ohio, Michigan, and Ontario, Canada." It cited this official government source. At least that statement is true and not SYNTH. To follow the synth you propose, we would have to add Ohio and Michigan and a Canadian province to your statement about states often included by various organizations.

If you can accurately state what you are trying to say with an RS, fine. But you have not yet. All you have done is "combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources." That is literally what SYNTH prohibits and what you have attempted to do.

As for you WP:GAME reference, you haven't even tried to indicate how what you have proposed passes SYNTH. I have not done anything in bad faith. I simply think you are wrong on the facts (which doesn't really matter either, since verfiability is the Wiki pillar, not truth, I just say this to explain why I am acting in good faith). So I am asking you to provide a source that says what you want the article to say. That it not stonewalling or inappropriately citing policy. It is the heart of WP:V. If you think I am wrong, please say why or do ask for third party opinion or follow one of the other dispute resolution processes.

Hoppingalong (talk) 05:03, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Delaware

I have happened upon this page in the past couple years.

Delaware is obviously the most controversial state when arguing North vs. South.

If you consider states, you must consider the purpose of states, or colonies. It is apparent to anyone that a state, or colony exists due to the extent in which people exist and govern said state or colony. Although Delaware may align with Maryland for the most part, geographically, the living human beings in Delaware are majority located in New Castle County, the northernmost of Pennsylvania's lower three counties.

When people bring up slavery, you must consider what amount, or percentage of blacks were in slavery at the time of the emancipation proclamation. Any research will undercover that Delaware had a minute amount or percentage of these, despite bordering the confederate state of Maryland.

In colonial times, it is without doubt that Delaware was considered a middle colony.

Unfortunately, the U.S. Census makes brash considerations as to where it must draw the line between north and south. Obviously, it has made a mistake in the 2000 Census.

This does not mean we have to perpetuate this misinterpretration on Wikipedia. Those who argue Delaware southern are usually New Englanders. If you speak geographically, north and south split down Virginia's southern border.

Correct the map as it should be corrected. At the very least, Delaware should be shaded.

Feel free to argue your points.

Although —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.99.203.164 (talk) 02:11, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

- You bring up a lot of good points - a lot that are reasons why Delaware should at least be mentioned or included on this page (even if as an "exception" to the census). Just wanted to point out a couple of things in response. So you know, Maryland is actually equally as controversial as Delaware as Maryland was also NOT a confederate state - the Confederate States began at Virginia and moving south from there. By the time the civil war came around, more than half of Maryland's slaves were free. Of course, this has been said many times, but it shouldn't even have to be - history is exactly that...HISTORY. Try looking at the present folks! I agree with the above statement about Delaware's New Castle County - the Delaware Valley is a staple of the Northeast, particularly the Mid-Atlantic. Tri-state area anyone? PA, DE, NJ? The whole country groups these folks together. It's very clear that DE has ties with the Northeast. This debate has just become ludicrous to me. I've been watching it for over a year now and the fact that people won't even add something that "includes" or "explains" MD and DE is just ignorant. ESPECIALLY DE - You can get to Philly in 30-45 mins from DE and to NJ in like 5. We have a bunch of jokers running this page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.179.30.197 (talk) 17:30, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Also, honestly, when people were setting up the regions for the Census I REALLY doubt they sat around and said "Hey, lets set it up so that the regions are representative of the cultures in the US." That didn't happen. They just did it probably without much rhyme or reason.

Secondly, yeah maybe some New Englanders will say we're a part of the south, but not nearly as many as how many Deep Southerners will venomously denounce our inclusion. Besides, I've heard even Bostonians before say MD and DE are NO WAY the South. I suppose this isn't very substantial or concrete evidence - so take it from the locals - Maryland, born and raised, not an ounce of southern about me. Moved to West Chester, PA and know New Castle County, DE very well - NOT southern...at all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.179.30.197 (talk) 17:38, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I am from CT and some may call it New England (only people from New England and other areas, not natives of CT!) but we do not use that title as we only deal with our NY/NJ/CT Tri-state area. While we see Boston and New England as it's own region (which it is), we include them as the northeast all the way down to D.C. There have never been any doubts about DE being in the NE along with MD and DC. PA is the only state in question from our perspective as it is not on the east coast and most of it is near the mid-west. We do call Philly an eastern city however.

I know how you guys feel you are in YOUR state telling the world where YOU are, but people who do no even live in your state want to tell you who you should be. I keep having a battle with a guy on here who hates for me to take New England out of all things CT but he goes in and puts New England in all things CT when I come with proof after proof that CT is a part of metro NYC and we do not call ourselves "New Englanders" and we consider the state to the east and north as New England, which does not include us. Now that CT has been removed from a New England tourism site, that should help my cause. I get tired of people (outsiders, lying and saying they are from where we are) trying to force us into something that we are not a part of. When I went to Philly, they ave the PA,NJ,DE Tri-state area. That says it all Slavery has nothing to do with a state being in the northeast or not! The biggest northern slave port was in RI!

Someone mentioned accents. Here in CT, we do not have the Boston accent (because we are not near them or that area), but some (they) like to tie us in with them because they are lonely out there with no other major city near-by. We are 10 minutes away from NYC - Boston is hours away. Some people like to bring up the HISTORY of DE or MD to include them in the south. That was history and most of their history was not the south. They like to say historically CT is New England, but that was HISTORY. Geography AND history shows that it was always NY as well. These articles are always written with agendas instead of the facts which is why I hate this site because it reads like propaganda instead of reality. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.28.89.187 (talk) 17:22, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Well put. I have little to argue right now simply because the article was renamed to specify it is only talking about the Census Bureau designation of Northeastern - which, quite obviously, makes no distinction based on cultures or connections but rather on whatever the hell they felt like doing. SO now that this page has decided to tell people what the Census Bureau already tells people, where do we make a page that informs people about what the Northeast actually is - cause this page blows, there's not a lot of info on here that people are searching for that they can't find on the census website. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Oldlinestate (talk • contribs) 07:49, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Grayshi's November 2010 addition

I reverted Grayshi's insertion of several states as falling within various entities' definitions of Northeastern United States. The insertion violated WP:UNDUE (as did the examples discussed on this talk page above in relation to similar insertions in July) because it elevates the characterization of random agencies above others without any third party sourcing to establish that the agency's opinion is worth inclusion (the U.S. Energy Information Administration Natural Gas Pipeline System? Wisconsin?). This just highlights how the term "Northeastern United States" doesn't have much of a meaning at all. The only agency that has defined the "region" and received third party coverage of the characterization is the Census Bureau. It is not perfect, but it is supportable with sources other than primary sources which run into WP:UNDUE problem if strictly summarized only or WP:SYNTH problems as they did in the paste. Hoppingalong (talk) 00:47, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

I don't see how it violates WP:UNDUE at all; nothing in the policy states that you must provide a secondary source for a source. The paragraph barely exceeds a few sentences and does represent a significant minority belief, and may even be considered a majority belief. A definition of the Northeast existed long before the Census Bureau, and I have yet to see any third-party coverage on the article for the Census Bureau's definition, nor can I find any significant coverage for the Census Bureau. For all we know they could have hired a homeless man to draw region lines on a map; remember that it is only one source and just because it is a government agency does not mean it is the end-all be-all source for truth. You're applying double standards here. …Grayshi ^{talk ■ my contribs} 21:17, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm not entirely convinced the concept of "Northeastern United States" as a distinct region with any meaning other than limited to specific idiosyncratic contexts does exist. It is not like, for example, New England or Southern United States which have been and continue to be viewed as distinct regions culturally, geopolitically, etc. The Census Bureau definition is not the be all and end all, and whether you and I would draw the lines differently is irrelevant, but the CB does compile most of the statistics for the United States. And those statistics get covered in reliable third party sources (example 1, example 2, and example 3, all from this month alone). I would be fine renaming this "Northeastern United States (Census Bureau region)" or something like that. Then if other definitions deserve their own article, and enough sources cover them to meet WP:N, they could get their own. And "Northeastern United States" could become as disambiguation page. With the exception of the nearly uncited History section (which highlights the fact that this is not a region with a coherent character), this is not much more than that anyway. In sum, without a reliable third party source indicating that a particular person or entity's definition is generally regarded as having any significant meaning, there is no way to overcome the WP:PRIMARY problem and assign the view its proper weight, if any, per WP:UNDUE. Hoppingalong (talk) 00:45, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Those are the Census Bureau's statistics for population and are completely irrelevant to the definition of the Northeast itself. Again, you still haven't proven why the Census Bureau's definition is any more authoritative than that of other government agencies or any other organization. …Grayshi ^{talk ■ my contribs} 23:07, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

None of the articles I linked above related to population figures as such. They related to homeowner vacancy rates, Congressional representation (which, I admit, is itself based only on population), and absentee voting rates. As I noted, I am not sure the region as such has any meaning or notability beyond the specifics of whichever group is defining it. I would argue that there is no right or wrong definition of "Northeastern United States" because the area is not inherently a region in the same way some other areas are. Nonetheless, the Census Bureau's definition is used for most of the nation's demographic and statistical purposes. It seems to be the most widely used, perhaps the only one used by entities other than the entity creating the definition. And it gets coverage in third party sources. My argument is based on the coverage of the various definitions in third party sources. The International Nuclear Safety Center's map of nuclear reactors in what it has determined for its purposes to be the Northeastern United States does not. Hoppingalong (talk) 23:25, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Then you'll have to provide evidence that Census Bureau data that is directly related to a definition of the Northeast is the most used and accepted by third party sources, and not say, the Fish and Wildlife Service. My searches haven't yielded anything so far proving this. …Grayshi ^{talk ■ my contribs} 21:43, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure the article has much use since, other than the Census Bureau definition, there seems little other than various one-off definitions of a bidirectional description, not a description of an area with any inherent geo, political, social, or other significant factor. Anyway, above I provided three sources that at least indicate the region is covered as such. With this I have now added a source saying exactly what you requested, from the U.S. Energy Information Administration no less. And I would note that the Fish and Wildlife Service regions do not appear to be intended to represent anything other than an breakdown for internal administrative purposes (Here is the map). They formally use numbers, not region names, and make the District of Columbia its own "region" which to me indicates the breakdown was probably to even the number of employees in the various regions, not any noteworthy characteristics of any particular region. Hoppingalong (talk) 22:05, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

I added another with this and another with this. Hoppingalong (talk) 22:13, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

The same could be said for the Census Bureau definition. Their maps seem to have arbitrary divisions of Northeast, South, etc. with little consideration of the culture or distinct identity for each area. …Grayshi ^{talk ■ my contribs} 22:43, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

People might argue with that analysis, but I would argue that it doesn't matter anyway. Whether you or I think a region is properly a region, or that it is properly drawn if such a region is appropriate, is irrelevant. All that matters is the coverage it gets. I agree that the region as the CB defines it is barely notable, if it indeed is (Britannica, for instance, does not have an article covering the Northeastern or Northeast U.S.). But certainly other definitions are even less so. As I have said, I'm not sure "Northeastern United States" really means all that much. The focus on the CB definition along with the mention that there are other definitions seems to get the weight about right as per WP:UNDUE. FWIW, I think the "history" section should be re-titled (maybe to "Composition") and limited with main wikilinks to the actual regions (New England and Mid-Atlantic). This will help the rampant OR, point people to articles that are more likely to give them what they are looking for, and make this article a much shorter (which seems right to me, compared to other, real regions) super disambiguation page, sort of. Hoppingalong (talk) 22:57, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

All right, that idea sounds reasonable. …Grayshi ^{talk ■ my contribs} 20:37, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

I took a whack at it. I could see moving some of the definitional text/sourcing into the "Composition" section, but that might not be worth it since the lead would either get very short or it would be a long summary of what would still be a relatively short article. Maybe a ask for some other day. Hoppingalong (talk) 21:48, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Geography and climate sections, etc.

With these linked edits, I removed most of the uncited geography/climate material. It was flagged since June 2010, was entirely uncited and essay-like (or even apparent OR in some cases), was unclear as to which definition of Northeastern United States it was based on, and was not written in an encyclopedic tone. I also reordered the remaining sections to put the Northeast Megalopolis paragraph closer to the demographic information (which also has source problems, but there must be sources to be had on it). On a more minor note, I removed the see also links because they are linked already in the footers and it seemed disproportionate for them to be also linked as see alsos. Hoppingalong (talk) 01:10, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Article move

I moved this article to Northeastern United States (U.S. Census Bureau) from Northeastern United States in an effort for clarity and to avoid the regular fights about which definition of this "region" should apply. If other version s of the region are notable, they can get their own article and Northeastern United States can disambiguate. The Census Bureau regional definitions are the most widely used, as noted in the article. But there are so many other definitions, I thought adding the Census Bureau would add clarity. Because of the number of other definitions, and because nobody has put forward any sources that indicate the region is somehow inherently cohesive, I think this is the best way to handle it. Though there are no other NE U.S. articles yet, there could be. Though the Census Bureau is the most widely used, that does not necessarily mean it should not have a qualifier in the title as per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Hoppingalong (talk) 01:46, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

The article move was unnecessary. Every other regional Wikipedia page seems to get along fine with citing the CB def as well as more realistic and common definitions. This article was perfectly fine for a few years until it was changed to its current skeletal/CB focused form earlier this year. There aren't a huge number of other "versions." Usually, either they fall in line with the CB's or they include MD, DE, and DC. Whether WV is included is probably the biggest inconsistency. I don't understand the big deal. The states in dark red are always considered part of the Northeast, the states in light red are sometimes considered part of the NE, and the white states are practically never considered part of the NE. 007bond (talk) 02:19, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

The issue is verifiability. If you go back and read this talk page and the archive, you'll see that everybody and their dog has an opinion about the definition of this region, and some people don't think it is a true region at all. We need to avoid WP:SYNTH, WP:OR and personal opinion. As for the other "regions", the regions that the Census Bureau defines, like Midwestern United States, make clear this is what the article is about without going into various editors' opinions or SYNTH. The Western United States and Southern United States article are slightly different because they were viewed as regions before and separate from the Census Bureau defined them. The Northeast (unlike New England) was not. Anyway, to make the article about anything other than various definitions, especially when dealing with demography, geography, and to a lesser extent history, there needs to be a definition used throughout the article. Since almost all U.S. statistics use the CB definition, that would seem to have to carry the day, subject to mentioning briefly any other definitions worthy of mention per WP:UNDUE. Hoppingalong (talk) 02:35, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

It is incorrect to say nobody else has this problem with the Census Bureau designation. Check out the Southern United States or Southeastern US pages - one of them partially includes MD and DE and another doesn't include them at all. MD and DE are not being placed anywhere. No one is claiming them. They should be shaded "light red" at least on this map. Hands down. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.179.30.43 (talk) 01:27, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

They are not part of the Census Bureau region. If they are part of a notable region (whether called Northeastern United States or something else by some other entity), they can be listed there. And they are the heart of the Mid-Atlantic states article and they are discussed at Southern United States and Eastern United States; there is no lack of coverage. Hoppingalong (talk) 01:39, 16 December 2010 (UTC)