Talk:Theodoros Kolokotronis

Bandit

wasn't he bandit/robber that got thrown out of mainland by the Church? http://books.google.com/books?ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=kolokotronis%20bandit&um=1&sa=N&tab=wp

No he wasn't. Arathian (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 08:04, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Comments

I don't have a copy of K.'s memoirs, which I read in translation a long time ago. I do have David Brewer's book on the war, which I'm going to check tomorrow to make sure I got some of my facts straight. (Remind me to cite it!)

Ok, going to bed now. Hopefully the original author and I can take turns at editing this! ~Jpbrenna

Miscapioned image?

There is a pictured labeled The Kastro at Argos which looks like Kastro Palamidi in Nafplio. While Kolokotronis took both fortresses, the image is still mislabeled, and it appears in the section of text treating the defense of Larissa by Ypsilantis, not the taking by Kolokotronis of Palamidi. --Joe 23:48, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

You are correct, this isn't Larissa. I've changed that caption. talk to +MATIA 15:09, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

political affiliations

maybe something should be written about Kolokotronis political affiliations and his support for Otto.--Greece666 23:26, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

NEW PICTURE

I thought a clearer picture would help. Philhellenism 02:57, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Ethnicity of Kolokotronis

Greek Documentary "1821" shows new facts about Kolokotronis and Marko Botsaris ethnicity,both of them were Aravanite's . The name "Kolokotronis " is translation of his original surname (in Albanian or Arvanite dialect) "Bythguri",. Before surname "Bythguri" alias "Kolokotronis" ,they were named "Çergjini". — Preceding unsigned comment added by AlbertBikaj (talk • contribs) 09:20, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

The adjustment in lead violates wp:mosbio and the previous version was restored. Even if he had some Arvanite origins, which still needs to be backed by wp:rs, this isn't an argument to adjust the introductory part.Alexikoua (talk) 11:39, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

He was Arvanite,there are a lot proofs! You just support propaganda here in Wikipedia. I got a lot references about his Arvanite ethnicity! AlbertBikaj (talk) 11:44, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

It appears you didn't follow wp:mosbio, about the opening part: "In most modern-day cases this will mean the country of which t'he person is a citizen, national or permanent resident, or if notable mainly for past events, the country where the person was a citizen, national or permanent resident when the person became notable.... Ethnicity or sexuality should not generally be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability. Similarly, previous nationalities or the country of birth should not be mentioned in the opening sentence unless they are relevant to the subject's notability."

To sum up, he was a Greek general and revolutionary. If there is something about his ethnicity or origin, you are welcome to contribute in the appropriate section of the article.Alexikoua (talk) 11:53, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

I have references about his arvanite origin.You did the same with Panagiotis Kone.You delete facts that clearly indicates his origin.You're hiding the truth.

79.106.109.180 (talk) 12:51, 17 July 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.106.109.165 (talk)

References

Quotations in citations

Though I'm not going to remove all quotes entirely as done in this case [[1]] exessive quotefarming should be avoided.Alexikoua (talk) 08:35, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

There was a similar issue about a quote from a 19th century source in the Arvanites page. An admin familiar with Balkan issues was ok with it [2]. In this instance when the above editor removed the quote and reference [3] for reasons of "no reason to overemphasize in this specific event", that sounded more like wp:idontlikeit than anything else. Kolokotronis was an eyewitness to the massacre of Muslims and Jews in Tripolitsa by forces he led. That's a relevant piece of information for the article despite whatever personal views anyone might have.Resnjari (talk) 08:54, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Overempasizing & quotefarming about a specific event in which Kolokotronis did not participate is irrelevant to the article (though it IS mentioned). For future reference during the Fall of Tripolitsa events Kolokotronis was saving the Albanian mercenaries and didn't participate in atrocities against the Jews&Turkish population.Alexikoua (talk) 10:58, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Where not taking about Albanian Ottoman troops who where fighting to against armed elements challenging the sovereignty of the state, so not sure why you decided to go there. About the article and what was cited in there he didn't partake, but and this is the important but, he was an eyewitness to what his troops under his command did which was massacre the Muslim and Jewish populations of Tripolitsa. Its his recollections of events to Edmonds of which that specific sentence is based. Please don't delete the reference again. Thankyou.Resnjari (talk) 11:53, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

The event is already mentioned and there is no need to add the entire quote from his memoirs too. You also need to avoid excessive quotefarming as you have been instructed by various editors (a typical example [[4]]). Thanks.Alexikoua (talk) 12:54, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

As for "quote farming", you have a history of cherry picking quotes and using them selectively and it has been noted by admins (a typical example: [5]). We can do this memory lane thing if you wish. Don't delete the reference. Thank you.Resnjari (talk) 14:37, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Apart from excessive quotefarming abuse (which you stubbornly ignore to accept though you have been instructed by various editors) you need to avoid OR claims about the so-called Tripolitsa involvement of Kolokotronis. On the other hand accusing co-editors by providing a dif from .... 2010 about a settled issue isn't a constructive approach.Alexikoua (talk) 20:17, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

Here we go, let me note something to you the quote in this article was not placed by me. But since you have no issue with removal of quotes you wont oppose similar cases in other articles. As for being instructed by other editors, admins have told you off for your cherry picking and selective usage of quote farming. You have no qualms in brining up peoples history same goes for history. And please don't claim that its so called. It was Kollokotronis' own words. Thats why there is the quote its mainly for the doubters who think its still so called there that a massacre ever happened. Its fact, Kollokotronis witnessed his troops doing what they did.Resnjari (talk) 20:38, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

The involvement of Kolokotronis was science fiction: an event that he didn't participate & no wonder you have nothing to present so far. For future reference my supposed "cherry picking claim" of 2010 was solved that time (I assume that's your most serious accusation against me).Alexikoua (talk) 23:35, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

No, he didn't participate he was an eyewitness to what HIS Greek and Arvanite troops did which was to massacre Muslim and Jewish civilians of Tripolitsa. Regarding yourself its not science fiction, an admin noted your behavior and editing style. If you have an issue take it up with the administrator who called you out on it.Resnjari (talk) 07:23, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

Apart from the OR you claim you insist to provide additional OR (this time about the supposed Arvanite troops under Kolokotronis' command). If you mean the "serious" issue I had in 2010 about not providing a full citation of an academic journal this has been settled and fixed eight years ago.Alexikoua (talk) 09:46, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

The admin was pointing out how you employ sources selectively, not though an issue with the source itself. Big difference. On the other matter The quote was a Kolokotronis' own recollections of what he witnessed. Source is this translated English version of those recollections by Elizabeth Edmonds: Kolokotrones, the Klepht and the Warrior, Sixty Years of Peril and Daring. An autobiography [6]. That source is cited in the article. As for Arvanites participating in those events here is Alexis Heraclides (2011). The essence of the Greek-Turkish rivalry: national narrative and identity. The London School of Economics and Political Science. p. 15. [7] "On the Greek side, a case in point is the atrocious onslaught of the Greeks and Hellenised Christian Albanians against the city of Tripolitza in October 1821, which is justified by the Greeks ever since as the almost natural and predictable outcome of more than ‘400 years of slavery and dudgeon’. All the other similar atrocious acts all over Peloponnese, where apparently the whole population of Muslims (Albanian and Turkish-speakers), well over twenty thousand vanished from the face of the earth within a spat of a few months in 1821 is unsaid and forgotten, a case of ethnic cleansing through sheer slaughter (St Clair 2008: 1–9, 41–46) as are the atrocities committed in Moldavia (were the “Greek Revolution” actually started in February 1821) by prince Ypsilantis.". This is fact, not science fiction.Resnjari (talk) 10:10, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

It appears that the quote you provided is refuting your argument: Kolokotronis didn't had Arvanites in the units he commanded during the fall of Tripolitsa, neither he ordered any massacre. Please read the available bibliography carefully before initiating similar discussions.Alexikoua (talk) 11:09, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

Kolokotronis was the leading commander of the siege. He also provides an aye witness account. I stand by what i wrote. Heraclides states it was the "atrocious onslaught" on Tripolitsa by Greeks and "Hellenised Christian Albanians" (i.e Arvanites) followed further below by what means i.e "ethnic cleansing". Its quite clear.Resnjari (talk) 11:18, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

Kolokotronis was "one of the commanders of the siege". That time he wasn't even in command of the Morea forces (not to mention Hydriotes etc.). He was proclaimed a commander-in-chief of the Morea forces by the Revolutionary Goverment some months after the fall of Tripolitsa (in 1822) [[8]]. The military leader of Morea that time was D. Ipsilantis. Alexikoua (talk) 11:49, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

Your referring to the high command of all forces in the Pelopoennesse with Ipsilantis. Thats different. I referring to Kolokotronis' position at the siege of Tripolitsa. Ipsilantis was not there. Kolokotronis himself did not participate the massacre but he was was there and he gave an eyewitness account of what happened in the aftermath. Its on the record from his own self in his words.Resnjari (talk) 12:58, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

Alexikoua (talk) 11:49, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

To be more precise the commanding general of Morea Ipsilantis was in charge of the force that was besieging Tripolitsa Around this town the Greeks, under the supreme command of Dimitrios Ipsilantis, had concentrated some 12,000 men. Kolokotronis doesn't even claim that he was an eyewitness he simply recycles third party accounts while he entered Tripolitsa after the incident (Thirty-two thousand were reported to have been slain. One Hydriote [boasted that he had] killed ninety. About a hundred Greeks were killed; but the end came [thus]: a proclamation was issued that the slaughter must cease." is that an eyewitness account?). He was a popular figure of the national struggle but he came in charge of the revolutionary army some months after the fall of Tripolitsa.Alexikoua (talk) 15:55, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

(unindent) WP:COATRACK based on 19th century sources. Out of the question. Khirurg (talk) 05:07, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

@Khirurg: so does that count for all 19th century sources where quotes are given on articles ? I am very curious ? Or is it selective use ?Resnjari (talk) 16:29, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Ancestry

Grillo is wrong, the family did not originate from Vuno. The family's original name was "Tzerginis" and they originated from a village in Arcadia. It's very easy to find sources that contradict Grillo [9]. The other source is WP:TERTIARY and not suitable for such a claim. Khirurg (talk) 16:50, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

If you find multiple peer-riviewed academic sources (not Protothema) that say the family's original name was Tzerginis, then Grillo can be removed per WP:DUE. Otherwise Grillo's work, focused on Arvanites, should stay. The other source is tertiary but it was published by a reliable academic publisher and says the same thing as Grillo says. Tertiary sources are not banned on Wikipedia. Ktrimi991 (talk) 16:56, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

There is no requirement for "multiple" (although even that shouldn't be hard). The claim is WP:EXTRAORDINARY and doesn't stand a chance. Khirurg (talk) 17:05, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

It is not "extraordinary" at all. Unless you provide the sources requested above, "doesn't stand a chance" is your opinion. Ktrimi991 (talk) 17:08, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

In a nutshell, the first member of the Kolokotronis family was Triantafyllakos Tzerginis, who lived in Roupaki, then named Kotsikas in Arcadia. Everything else is slightly nonsense. This comes from the Kolokotronis family archive. I will try to find it to place it here. Please let’s not include nonsense because last time we have seen to be labelled as Aromanian. At least we need to achieve consensus about what kind of nonsense to include... Othon I (talk) 17:52, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Yup, this is well known. This should be pretty easy. Khirurg (talk) 18:43, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Tertiary sources: summarize, and often quote, primary and secondary sources., but in this case there we have the opposite: a tertiary that objects primary and secondary sources, i.e. not appropriate for use on this part.Alexikoua (talk) 02:58, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

By the way who is Grillo? By a search it appears that he never produced another work apart from the specific one at 1985 [[10]](republished in the 2000s). Apart from that various some ultra-nationalists also tend to cite him [[11]].Alexikoua (talk) 03:21, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

Ethnic cleansing against Turks

Why isn't this man mentioned as one of the perpetrators of the ethnic cleansing against Turks? This person is one of the perpetrators of the Tripolitsa massacre. Today, even the Greeks themselves admit that they massacred the Turks in Tripolitsa and are proud of it, why do Wikipedia users not mention that this man is a war criminal? 37.155.72.85 (talk) 18:42, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

Please provide your three best independent reliable sources which you think represent your POV and let us review/discuss. --ARoseWolf 19:02, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

WP:EXTRAORDINARY claim pushed by low quality sources

None of the major recent in-depth histories of the Greek War of Independence, such as Mazower (2021) [12], Kitromilides and Tsoukalas (2021) [13] or Brewer 2011 [14], make any mention of any kind of Albanian ancestry for Kolokotronis, however remote. These are all in-depth, scholarly works by top rated historians, who discuss the war, Kolokotronis, and contributions by Albanians in depth, yet none of them ever include Kolokotronis among those of Albanian ancestry. Kolokotronis own memoirs, where he discusses his family's provenance in depth, make no mention of any kind of Albanian ancestry. Nor was he ever described as speaking even a word of Albanian, and the regions he hailed from is not among those regions of the Peloponnese that had been settled by Albanians. As such, the claim that Kolokotronis was Albanian or of Albanian origin falls under WP:EXTRAORDINARY. None of the sources used to push this claim meet the requirement for high-quality sourcing, and they do not provide any kind of evidence to back up their claims.

• Grillo 1985 is nationalist historiography from the totalitarian Hoxha era in Albania, when there was no academic freedom in the country, and moreover makes outlandish claims that the Kolokotronis family originated from Vuno in Himara, which is complete ahistorical nonsense. The source is WP:FRINGE and cannot be considered WP:RS in any way.
• Skutsch 2003 "Encyclopedia of World Minorities" is a WP:TERTIARY source of extremely wide scope, with no in depth coverage whatsoever. The author of the section on Arvanites is one "Agron Alibali", an international studies major, who is not a historian, not an academic, and also contains glaring factual errors such as incorrectly labeling Karaiskakis (who he misspells as "Karaiskaj") as an Arvanite, even though he was in fact a Sarakatsani. Alibali just mentions a bunch of the most famous names of the war in passing, without any backing or explanation, which follows from the fact that he is not a historian. Another one for the scrap heap.
• This leaves Krommyda 2023, but here again the same problems. Krommyda is not an academic, not a historian, and does not base his claim on anything. The claim by a certain "Yannoulopoulos" that he mentions has been roundly rejected by historians, while the claim that the Kolokotronis family may have been descendants of Hellenized Albanian migrants from 14th century is entirely unsubstantiated. What is this claim based on? Historical documents? Testimonies? Nothing at all in fact. It's just a bare assertion without anything to back it up. This is because Krommyda is not an academic historian, but rather an "education management specialist" with no academic background, and thus no ability to parse historical documents. This claim is also flatly contradicted by Kolokotronis' memoirs themselves [15], where he discusses at length his family's distant origins, saying the original family name was "Tzerginis", which is a Greek and not an Albanian name, and makes no mention whatsoever of any Albanian ancestry. Kolokotronis himself is not known to have ever spoken a word of Albanian, nor is the region his family hails form (southwestern Arcadia) among the regions known to have been settled by Albanians in the 14th century. There is thus plenty to contradict Krommyda's asserstion but nothing that supports it.

So what we have here is non-academic authors, all of them Albanian, making passing mentions claiming Albanian ancestry for someone that no academic or non-Albanian sources do, without substantiating their claims in any way. Kolokotronis is one of the most famous protagonists of the Greek War of Independence, so its understandable there would be individuals of various backgrounds wanting to "claim" him, and for that matter there are equally unsubstantiated and baseless speculations of Aromanian or Slavic ancestry. But none of these meet the criteria for WP:EXTRAORDINARY claims, and thus cannot be in the article. Khirurg (talk) 18:11, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

You have used WP:EXTRAORDINARY as a justification in your attempts to remove sourced content as much as you do not understand that what is "extraordinary" is not decided by you or I but by mainstream sources published by reliable publishers. Taylor&Francis and Routledge are very reliable, peer-reviewed, academic publishers. The two works published by them focus on Albanians in Greece, unlike Mazower, Kitromilides and Tsoukalas who do not. Not to mention that the fact that Mazower and K&T do not say Kolokotronis was of Albanian origin does not mean it is a "fringe" view. If you have RS that say he was of Greek, Vlach, Slavic or whatever origin, feel free to add them, but their existence does not make the RS suggesting an Albanian origin useless. Ktrimi991 (talk) 19:46, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

Grillo is not RS and you know that, and Skutsch is tertiary and does not "focus on Albanians in Greece", and contains factual errors and you know that as well. Don't edit-war them in the article again. Krommyda is not a scholar, has no academic credentials, and just speculates without backing it with anything, and you know that as well. A reliable publisher alone is not sufficient to include extraordinary material into the article. And it is extraordinary, because not a single academic source mentions any Albanian ancestry. You can't find a single one. Mazower mentions Albanians very frequently in his book, but never mentions Kolokotronis among them. No way. Khirurg (talk) 20:13, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

Tertiary sources are not banned on Wikipedia, at least not when they agree with other, secondary RS. Unless you can find an RS saying that those academics who suggest an Albanian origin are lying, this discussion is rather pointless. Ktrimi991 (talk) 20:24, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

Skutsch is tertiary and does not "focus on Albanians in Greece" The chapter is titled "Arvanites"... Ktrimi991 (talk) 20:30, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

Skutsch contains factual errors and has a global focus. The chapter on Arvanites contains errors and is written by layperson. Unless you can find RS saying those academics who suggest an Albanian origin are lying is a transparent attempt to shift the burden of proof, and to an impossible standard (it is impossible to prove a negative). But you don't have a single academic that suggests an Albanian origin, let alone those academics who suggest an Albanian origin, so there's nothing to prove anyway. Bottom line is, if you want to include any proposed Albanian ancestry, you are the one that needs to identify academic sources that do so. Ylli Krommyda is not an academic and has zero publications [16]. So far, you've got nothing. Khirurg (talk) 20:39, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

I have yet to see a source being added to the article about him being of ethnic Greek origin, or at least one that negates an Albanian origin put forth. Kind of weird. Alltan (talk) 21:10, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

If I were you, I would abstain from making unfounded assertions about Ylli Kromidha and Alexis Heraclides not being academics; they are.

Alexis Heraclides is Emeritus Professor of International Relations at the Panteion University of Social and Political Sciences. He has written several books in English and Greek, including The Macedonian Question and the Macedonians: A History (2021).

Ylli Kromidha is an Albanian political scientist specializing in Balkan international politics and history. His previous research monograph was Preventing Diplomacy: The Albanian-Macedonian Conflict and the Greek-Macedonian Conflict (in Greek, 2023). [17] Nishjan (talk) 21:26, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

The chapter on Arvanites contains errors and is written by layperson The "layperson" is a well-known academic, has been cited as such by other academics and has been a member of the University of South Carolina International Editorial Board. Ylli Krommyda is not an academic and has zero publications Not true, and, in any case, the author of that chapter is Heraclides. Ktrimi991 (talk) 21:34, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

Plenty of high quality sources reject an Albanian origin. This source here on 19th century Greece [18], when describing the "blood brother" relationship between Kolokotronis and the Albanian Ali Farmaki, states that Links forged between adopted brethren...could transcend ethnicity, automatically implying that Kolokotronis and Ali Farmaki were of different ethnicity. Btw, this source here [19],(which was added by Alltan without an author or journal title) describes Kolokotronis as a "Christian Albanian", which is not only nonsense, but supposedly sources it to a pdf that does not make any mention of Kolokotronis' ethnicity. What journal is this anyway? Sources like these cannot be used. Khirurg (talk) 23:13, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

Feel free to add the sources which say he was of Greek origin. The article has room for all views held by RS. On the sources added by Alltan, I have not reviewed them, but from a quick look they do not look like the kind of source I prefer to use. Ktrimi991 (talk) 23:24, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

As for Alexis Heraclides, as his wikipedia entry makes clear, he has received widespread criticism for his views and scholarship. Khirurg (talk) 23:25, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

Being criticized does not make a source useless, if that source has been published by an academic publisher and their claim is supported by other academic sources. Noel Malcolm and Oliver Schmitt have been widely criticized but they are high quality RS and as such are widely used on Wiki. Ktrimi991 (talk) 23:29, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

Except his claims are not supported by other academic sources, they are in fact contradicted, e.g. by Cassia [20]. None of the other sources used in the article used to back the Albanian descent claim are high quality academic sources. Khirurg (talk) 00:45, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

The academic sources are there. Call Alibali a "layperson" as much as you want, he is a well-known academic. The sources are peer-reviewed, and the publishers well-known. Unless you can provide RS that say the Albanian origin claim is a fringe lie, the academic sources have a place in the article. I do not see any reason why we should keep discussing this if you do not bring evidence that mainstream scholarship considers the Albanian origin claim to be fringe. Ktrimi991 (talk) 01:00, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

You don't get to shift the burden of proof. The burden of proof lies on those trying to add the material. From WP:VNOT: While information must be verifiable for inclusion in an article, not all verifiable information must be included. Consensus may determine that certain information does not improve an article. Such information should be omitted or presented instead in a different article. The responsibility for achieving consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content. Nothing you say can change that. Neither Alibali nor Herclides are historians, they are political scientists, and Alibali is tertiary anyway. Neither of them meets the threshold for WP:EXTRAORDINARY. Khirurg (talk) 01:26, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

Another extremely high quality source (none other than Roderick Beaton, one of the top historians on modern Greek history): There are many references to "Romans", that is Orthodox Christians, who in this region would have neem overwhelmingly Greek-speaking. Manthos presents these "Romans"...As it happens, these insurgents included the ancestors of Theodoros Kolokotronis. [21]. Khirurg (talk) 01:34, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

That "extremely high quality source" does not say that Kolokotronis was not of Albanian/Arvanite origin. He just says that a century earlier Kolokotronis' ancestors were "Romans", and explains that those "Romans" were mostly Greek-speaking. How does that refute an Albanian origin? I am adding more RS on the Albanian origin claim. If you have more RS on the Greek origin claim, you should add them. The article should mention both views; the Greek one is not less important than the Albanian one. Ktrimi991 (talk) 02:02, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

Yes it does, "Romans" at the time meant Greeks Greek: Ρωμιοί. See Names of the Greeks. Romioi explicitly excludes Arvanites/Albanians, who at the time were Greek: Αρβανιτες. Τhe new source you have added does not back the claim either. It erely states that some villagers believed him to be arvanitic. It is not the view of the authors. Khirurg (talk) 02:08, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

Kolokotronis did not speak a word of Albanian. when he was reunited with his sister, who had been captured and ended up in Albania married to an Imam, they could not communicate because she had forgotten Greek and he did not speak Albanian [22]. Khirurg (talk) 02:11, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

He probably did not speak Albanian and he certainly did not care about Albania, but how does that prove he did not have Albanian origin? Ktrimi991 (talk) 02:15, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

Arvanites spoke Albanian. Kolokotronis did not speak Albanian. Not an Arvanite, by definition. Khirurg (talk) 02:18, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

A source can be reliable for some statements, and unreliable for others. For example, unsubstantiated speculations by political scientists, whose work focuses in general on Greek-Albanian relations, as well as claims made in passing, cannot be given the same weight as more in-depth sources by historians, that focus exclusively on the individual in question. There is nothing unreasonable about this approach. Furthermore, the reference to Yianis Yianoulopoulos is actually a footnote from a book that is about the Greek territorial claims in the Paris Peace Conference (1946), not about Kolokotronis, and it hasn't even been published yet; and of course, per the same authors it is disputed by several non-nationalist specialists. The claim by Örenç (2013) is made in passing, and as Khirurg indicated, it is based on a misinterpretation of the reference he used; that is Erdem (2007), who clearly describes Kolokotronis as a Greek leader addressing Albanian chiefs, where the former referred to a certain Ali as their grandfather, metaphorically; this is obviously a reference to his friend Ali Farmaki, which is also clarified by Erdem. I recall having sent an email to Örenç back in 2021 about it, and he never replied back. Dushku (2008) is an Albanian historian who likewise makes a claim in passing, without even citing a reference. I mean, we also have Greek historians making all sorts of claims in passing, but we wouldn't even consider adding them in any article. Even the new reference that was added, is a misinterpretation. More specifically, Elisabeth Kirtsoglou and Lina Sistani, the two anthropologists who wrote the relevant article, actually referred to the rationales behind derogatory statements made by some Dopyoi 'locals' of the village Nea-Velanidia in northern Greece; this is not the opinion of the authors. From page 205:

Although the Dopyoi villagers in Nea-Velanidia did not always, or en masse create absolute and clear-cut boundaries between themselves and their 'Other neighbours', in moments of anger or perceived injustice, diverse categories of other Greek nationals, such as certain historical figures, Pontic refugees, inhabitants of Rhodes and Vlachs, could be referred to as Turks. The rationale behind such a classification would be different in each case. Kolokotronis, for instance, the most preeminent figure in the Greek official historiography, renowned for his exploits against the Ottoman Turks, would be labelled as a Turk on the grounds of being of Arvanitic origins. The Pontic refugees, the most celebrated 'Turks' amongst the Dopyoi Neo-Velanidiots (...), would receive this derogatory label on the premise that they had originated from areas which currently belong to Turkey, spoke the Turkish language and had a dark complexion as opposed to the Dopyoi's alleged fare skin colour (...).

Α recent publication that focuses exclusively on Kolokotronis is Θεόδωρος Κολοκοτρώνης: Από τη μορφή του στην εικόνα της (2021), which is a biography written by two academic historians. I have full access and it doesn't say anything about a potential Albanian origin; in fact, it only includes an insignificant (per the authors) speculation about a potential Slavic ultimate origin. Demetrios1993 (talk) 02:28, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

Not only that, but I just noticed that among the additions that have been attempted to be rammed through by edit-warring, it states that Kolokotronis was fluent in Albanian, sourced to Herclides, yet this is patently false, as it is well-known that Kolokotronis did not speak a work of Albanian. And this is according to Mazower, one of the top sources on the topic. This greatly calls into question Herclides' validity as a source. Khirurg (talk) 02:40, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

Most people involved in military affairs in mainland Greece were to a smaller or larger degree fluent in Albanian during this period regardless of their origins, thus it would be very unlikely for Kolokotronis who was personally linked to Muslim Albanians like Ali Farmaqi to not have at least some knowledge of Albanian. @Demetrios1993: We do know that his direct ancestors didn't live in Greece until the Middle Ages. This is not something which is a matter of speculation as his relatives have been tested. He simply couldn't have been of direct Greek ancestry patrilineally. His exact lineage probably wasn't even present in the Balkans until late antiquity. I don't think that Heraclides (2023) claims something which falls under WP:FRINGE, nor is the source unreliable. It is true that not all sources are suitable for all cases but the statement in Heraclides (2023) is nuanced and should be restored. If you insist on exclusion of sources like Heraclides (2023), I can't see how the inclusion of sources which have very little academic recognition like Filip Liço whom you have used in other articles can be maintained even in principle. Editors need to maintain cross-article consistency in the manner inclusivity of sources is debated because if they don't do so this can only generate bigger problems.--Maleschreiber (talk) 18:10, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

Most people involved in military affairs in mainland Greece were to a smaller or larger degree fluent in Albanian during this period regardless of their origins, thus it would be very unlikely for Kolokotronis who was personally linked to Muslim Albanians like Ali Farmaqi to not have at least some knowledge of Albanian. is your own WP:OR, and is directly contradicted by Mazower. I recommend not wasting anyone's time with stuff like this. As for We do know that his direct ancestors didn't live in Greece until the Middle Ages. This is not something which is a matter of speculation as his relatives have been tested. He simply couldn't have been of direct Greek ancestry patrilineally. His exact lineage probably wasn't even present in the Balkans until late antiquity., again, that is original research and of no interest to anyone. There is no quid pro quo, either ("If you don't re-add Heraclides I will remove Lico"). Khirurg (talk) 19:37, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

I think that all editors need to understand that what we write in wikipedia about such subjects doesn't matter much. This should mean that everyone should be more open-minded about excluding/including because there are far better and more direct sources about the ancestry of any individual. There is a dedicated DNA Project by members of the Kolokotronis family, where everyone can trace ancestry: Kolokotronis/Tserginis The key lineage of the Kolokotronis is I-BY19914 which descends from a single ancestor who lived somewhere in the Balkans in the 9th century CE. His descendants today are mainly Bulgarians, Romanians, Slav Macedonians, Serbs, Albanians. The lineage itself has a Germanic origin and couldn't have been in the Balkans before late antiquity. As the Kolokotronis branch splits from the branch from Serbia in the 11th century, it's certain that only a late medieval entry - at the earliest - is possible for this lineage in Greece. This is public information made known by members of the Kolokotronis family itself and anyone who searches for their origins will find about it instantly. To act in wikipedia as if we don't know his exact ancestry doesn't add anything to the discussion. The only real question concerns the exact language the ancestor of Kolokotronis who migrated to Greece spoke. Does this make Kolokotronis less Greek in the 19th century? Such a statement would be a very essentialist reading of history and identity formation and this is what Heraclides (2023) highlights. There's nothing wrong with what Heraclides (2023) discusses. It becomes a problem only when naturally occuring events like migration are being invisibilized in favour of monoethnic narratives which are inaccurate.--Maleschreiber (talk) 20:01, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

It's kind of strange hearing from you that wikipedia "doesn't matter much", because even if you don't take it seriously, I can assure you plenty of people do, including admins probably reading this discussion. Anyway, we're not going to report amateur self-reported genetic testing, nor use it inform our decisions, anymore than we would use skull measurements. But even if we entertain this thought for the sake of argument (and only for that), I would think that you of all people would know that that a single patrilineal lineage ~1000 years old proves absolutely nothing. That's just one out of possibly hundreds of ancestors. And even then, it would actually contradict Heraclides, because it would imply distant Slavic ancestry instead of more recent Albanian ancestry. But anyway, it doesn't matter because none of this is going into the article. Heraclides is glaringly wrong about Kolokotronis being fluent in Albanian, which calls into question whatever else he says about him. As for "monoethnic narratives", I'm wondering if that applies to figures like Skenderbeg or Mohammad Ali of Egypt (who was Turkish and not Albanian, according to Mazower), or just Greek historical figures. Khirurg (talk) 23:05, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

For such matters, it's not a key source of information diffusion and it's just not going to ever be such a source. There's no reason for anyone to look up anyone's ancestry in wikipedia - they can find the exact information they're looking for in public/private databases. Each platform operates under specific limitations. We're not going to report as a source his family's DNA project, but it's not amateur and the data are valid. I brought it up to highlight my starting point which is that Kolokotronis was the descendant of a migrant. A source which operates under the same starting point may produce plausible theories, one which doesn't can't produce plausible theories. Heraclides (2023) belongs in the first grouping because he acknowledges it as a possibility. That's just one out of possibly hundreds of ancestors. : Yes, but in area like the Peloponnese where high rates of migration are observed - except for Inner Mani - this usually translates to compact groups moving in and maintaining their distinct cultural identity for a long period not just 1 in a few hundred ancestors like you would expect in the case of an individual migration to an island community. And even then, it would actually contradict Heraclides, because it would imply distant Slavic ancestry instead of more recent Albanian ancestry. : Not necessarily, I've seen quite a few lineages which definitely have an ultimately Slavic origins but reached the Peloponnese via Albanian migrations. In this case, I believe that a key underlying population will more likely be related to Vlachs, but for the actual migration any population is possible with Albanians being statistically a bit more likely as Albanian migrations are historically documented as a mass event. Archival research would probably offer some clear answers. or just Greek historical figures : It applies to everyone to the extent that a claim can be backed up by hard data or at least very solid theories.--Maleschreiber (talk) 01:32, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

Your post is literally 100% original research ("this usually translates to compact groups","I have seen quite a few lineages.."). I'm not the least bit interested in genetic speculations, and your claimed "hard data" is unscientific amateur self-published data. Raw data cannot be used in any way to draw conclusions; data needs to be verified, evaluated, and interpreted by experts and go through peer-review before any conclusions can be even attempted. Data that's not published and interpreted in a scientific journal is not worthy of any further discussion. Publication, or it does not exist. Genetic data in particular is highly prone to manipulation and misinterpretation by individuals or groups with unscientific agendas. So with regards to It applies to everyone to the extent that a claim can be backed up by hard data or at least very solid theories., this is definitely not the case here - you just nullified your own argument here. There is anyway nothing to suggest that Heraclides is aware of this "data". Bottom line is, Heraclides' claim is unsubstantiated speculation that could literally apply to anyone. He is not a historian, and he does not provide anything to substantiate this speculation (because he is not a historian). For controversial and high visibility topics it is essential to stick to high quality academic sources. Heraclides is clearly wrong about Kolokotronis being "fluent" in Albanian, and this calls into question his factual accuracy regarding Kolokotronis. Now, then, based on your response, I presume you don't have an objection to describing Mohammad Ali as Turkish (Mazower 2021 and many others). Khirurg (talk) 03:22, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

My post is simply an explanation as to why any theory which tries to make the lineage of Kolokotronis a local, medieval Greek lineage doesn't work. Academic studies provide reliable and informed interpretations of raw data, but the raw data won't change: I-BY19914. This is the lineage of Kolokotronis and it's something which everyone who has shown interest in the subject knows. How it got to Greece, requires further research and investigation via reliable, secondary sources and as is the case in such matters, we'll probably get a specific study about it in a few years. The generation of public raw data in private corp settings is basically free research for academic labs to pick up later. The argument by Heraclides is in line with the fact that the progenitor of Kolokotronis was a medieval migrant from the Balkans, others which go the opposite way and try to argue for a local origin aren't. In any case, there's no hurry. The migrant origin of Kolokotronis in the Peloponnese is confirmed and sooner or later it'll be added as more secondary sources will be published.--Maleschreiber (talk) 09:04, 17 September 2023 (UTC)