Talk:Bill Lawrence (guitar maker)

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Warning

Please do not vandalize this page by deletion. If there are factual or opinion corrections to add, place them at the bottom without deleting the article, or its contents.

Article has been altered by Just me too on September 12, 2006. The section started on May 11, 2005 as "Response to Statements Above", edited more than eleven times and the last editing date was December 7, 2005, has been removed. Also removed are the following: "New Info Regarding "Bill Lawrence" Trademark", "Response to: New Info Jzchak Wajcman Altered or Forged Documents", and "Response to: The Facts Are"--Becky Lawrence 20:22, 25 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hello all Bill Lawrence partisans on both sides. As this article is about the person Bill Lawrence, I think we can wait until we have a more complete NPOV history detailed here before we add details of the conflict to the main article page. Carltonh 16:32, 9 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The personal name Bill Lawrence and the person

As Willi Lorenzo Stich has been known exclusively by the personal name Bill Lawrence for at least 40 years, and was even called Bill Lawrence by Jzchak Wacjman as well before the controversy, it is appropriate and NPOV to call him by that name just as much as the namesMadonna or Sting for those individuals. As such, those who erase his name and replace it with Willi L. Stich are intentionally trying to add a POV bias. (Notice Willi = Bill and Lorenzo = Lawrence is intentionally hidden by that.) To whom belongs Bill Lawrence as a trade mark and/or service mark is debated and acknowledged. That the person here http://nocaster.com/bl45recordsleeve.jpg is known as Bill Lawrence is continuous 40 year history. All commercial references to Bill address him as a person http://www.billlawrence.com/Images/scan0004.jpg Carltonh 19:07, 29 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Conflict over ownership of name

Bill Lawrence started "Lawrence Sound Research" (LSR) in 1976. It was the first company to market replacement pickups. In 1982 Jzchak (EZ) Wajcman joined the company as co-owner before the company's bankruptcy in 1984. Jzchak Wajcman also coowned a previous but separate company with Bill, "Lawrence Electro Sound" from 1965-1970. At the time of the LSR bankruptcy, Wajcman purchased the assets of the company from the foreclosing bank.

There continues to exist the controversy whether the "Bill Lawrence" name was one of the assets which Wajcman bought. It had not been officially trademarked by LSR or any previous company while Bill Lawrence was a part of them. However, Bill's name and picture did appear on its products and advertisments. Both Bill Lawence and Wacjman produce pickups using the Bill Lawrence name while the issue is being addressed by the US Patent and Trademark Office.

Of primary importance to the legal dispute is whether the USPTO will consider Bill Lawrence as a name identifying the individual who called himself by this name or not. Per the Trademark Act Section 2(c), 15 U.S.C. §1052(c); TMEP §§813 and 1206, if the USPTO determines the name represents the person born Willi Lorenz Stich, then Wajcman would be required to have signed written consent that this person authorizes Wajcman to register the name as a legal trademark. Since Wajcman does not have this, and could not get it, his argument that he own this name rests on his claim that Bill Lawrence does not represent a person. However, LSR advertisements identified by photograph and name that the person born Willi Lorenz Stich was Bill Lawrence. The Bill Lawrence name was also used to represent him both as a recording artist and by publications within the music industry.

Bill Lawrence officially filed for a US service mark for the name Bill Lawrence in May 1998 for Technical consulting in the nature of design and evaluation of stringed musical instruments and accessories, namely, pick-ups, strings and bridges with a first use date of 1962.

Jzchak Wajcman officially filed for a California trade mark over the name Bill Lawrence in May 2004. In June 2004, Wajcman filed a petition to have Bill's US service mark cancelled. To date, it has not been cancelled and stands "in full force and effect."

Jzchak Wajcman did not officially register the company name Bill Lawrence Guitar Pickups until October 1998 with the San Diego registration number 1998027533.

External links

The following is not NPOV for several reasons. There was no such company officially titled Bill Lawrence Guitar Pickup Company that existed as a creation of Bill Lawrence. It would be useful, however, to find out what date that Jzchak first registered the name Bill Lawrence Guitar Pickup Company because this official title is something that he created after the 1984 bankruptcy.

Jzchak Wajcman's statement

Bill Lawrence is a trademark registered in the state of California for marketing guitars and electronic sound pickups for guitars, and is owned by Jzchak Wajcman, founder of the original Bill Lawrence Guitar Pickup Company (Lawrence Electro Sound) in 1965.

An application has also been filed by Mr. Wajcman to register the Bill Lawrence trademark with the US Patent and Trademark Office.

Bill Lawrence Guitar Pickup Company

New Info Jzchak Wajcman Altered or Forged Documents

At a recent hearing, Jzchak Wajcman admitted through his attorney that he filed a copy of an altered or forged document and gave no explanation until he was exposed --http://www.billlawrenceusa.com/swampkaster/exhibits.htm BTWJzchak Wajcman removed this link from his website's "History" page on 02/14/06 prior to his deposition held in federal court on 02/15/06.

Now click here! - http://www.billlawrence.com/Pages/RealvsFake.htm

The Facts Are:

Jzchak Wajcman's altered/forged assignment document posted above, including 180 pages of other dubious documents, were submitted to the USPTO one year ago on July 15, 2005, not two years ago as the anonymous writer posted above. ( See link below)

All of Jzchak Wajcman's altered/forged documents was then, and is still now, a major issue in both the Federal Court and at the USPTO. Using the USPTO and Federal Court to publish dirty documents does not make them clean.

FYI - Wajcman's cancellation petition at the USPTO is suspended -- confirmed dates 06/21/2005 and 06/19/2006.

See the USPTO history text page - [[1]]

--Becky Lawrence 20:25, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Wajcman clearly owns the “Bill Lawrence” tradename.

The “New Info” highlights the absurds, taken out of context, it is misstating and contradicting the actual facts and events. It gives the real story a false meaning and effect. This distorted statement: “At a recent hearing, Jzchak Wajcman admitted through his attorney that he filed a copy of an altered or forged document” is a clear twist. Wajcman's attorney never made such a statement. This spinning trick will not change the facts that at the courts hearing, the judge ruled against Stich and Wajcman won that TRO motion. The real facts are that Wajcman received the assignment as is from Willi Stich’s wife Joyce Stich on or about June 23, 1982. Wajcman never asked Joyce to take anything out of the Assignment. The Assignment signed by Willi Stich (with or without the six year limitation) is relevant to show that Willi Stich always viewed the “Bill Lawrence” name as a trademark and trade name [edit: and even with the six year limit, the Assignemnet was in effect when the sale of LSR, including the tradename "Bill Lawrence", took place]. Willi Stich entered into a security agreement with Third National Bank on July 8, 1983 under which he pledged certain assets as security, Such assets included without limitation all Stich’s patents, patent applications, copyrights, trademarks, and trade names. The Bank foreclosed on Willi Stich’s assets including the trademark and trade name "Bill Lawrence" and in 1985 Third National Bank in Nashville legally sold and transfered the trade name “Bill Lawrence” to Wajcman. All the rest is nonsense. Wajcman clearly owns the “Bill Lawrence” tradename.

To Who It May Concern -- April 25, 2006

There were two lawsuits filed in the 9th District Federal Court in Southern California in 2005 -- Case No: 05CV1200LAB.

Because of these federal cases, Bill and I want to avoid wasting our valuable time and energy defending ourselves at Wikipedia against all these ridiculous and specious accusations and statements published here by a certain party and his shill --most likely a sock pocket too --as evidenced on the history pages.

Let’s just STOP THE NONSENSE here at Wikipedia and cease functioning as a de facto, extralegal courtroom with no judge or jury -- in other words, please allow the federal court to properly handle the legal issues at hand.

Bill's legendary achievements, as a player, designer and manufacturer, will be detailed in a book he's currently preparing. There is also quite a lot information about Bill published in our industry’s trade books, historical data and magazine articles/interviews that can help readers learn more about him. One recent example, here's a short bio as published by the First World Guitar Congress where Bill held a symposium at Towson University in Maryland in June 2004 on "The Function of the Electric Guitar." Other well-known music industry figures attended the Guitar Congress with Bill include guitarists Les Paul, Eric Johnson, and Andy Summers, as well as Randall Kremer, the spokesperson and chief communications officer for the Smithsonian's National Museum of Natural History:

“Bill Lawrence was born in Cologne, Germany on March 24, 1931, about the same time the electric guitar was invented. His father, a skilled machinist and accomplished guitarist, introduced him to the world of engineering and music. When Bill was eight he began playing the violin but, at that age, wasn’t sure if he wanted to be an engineer or a musician. This all changed in 1946 just after the end of the war. While working for the US military government as an interpreter, Bill was exposed to the American Forces Radio Network (AFN). For the first time Bill heard jazz and, more importantly, the electric guitar. Guitarists, like Les Paul, Barney Kessel and Oscar Moore, became his idols, and at sixteen, he switched from violin to the guitar. Before the age of twenty, Bill was one of Europe’s leading guitarist, and by 1953, he became the main endorser for Framus. Europe’s largest guitar manufacturer, Framus would introduce a guitar made to Bill’s specifications -- the Billy Lorento guitar (Bill’s stage name at that time). As an endorser in those early years of the electric guitar, he recognized that it was extremely difficult for guitarists to explain the qualities of sound to guitar builders and engineers. Because of this he began his intensive study in physics and electrodynamics, becoming one of the electric guitar’s first "player-designer-engineers".

Over the past thirty-five years, Bill has published numerous articles on the subject of guitar design, been granted a number of patents, and worked with some of the most respected companies in the guitar industry. He is, without question, a true expert in guitar and string instrument pickup design. His latest designs include the series of pickups (the SCN’s) used in Fender’s top line, highly acclaimed American Deluxe Series Guitars and Basses.”

The music industry and guitarist worldwide continue to support Bill Lawrence and his work, and -- I believe I can speak for many of us who‘ve witnessed Bill‘s recent plight -- we are greatly saddened that he must cope with this bizarre situation where someone tries to rewrite history to erase a man’s 40+ year professional identity, namely Bill Lawrence.

The fact is -- Bill’s status as a living legend cannot be so easily eradicated because he is, and continues to be, part of the psyche and heartbeat of our illustrious music scene!

If there are any further questions, please feel free to contact Bill and me using our toll free number, 877-647-2651.

Thank you.

Becky Lawrence

P.S. I will take a stand regarding three matters published here --

1. Joyce, Bill’s ex-wife.
2. Bill’s Certificate of Registration for his mark “Bill Lawrence.”
3. The first replacement pickup company.

Joyce is unable to defend herself against the Jzchak Wajcman's allegation of altering/forging the assignment agreement 24 years ago. She passed away in the late 90‘s and can’t speak out against this recent attack.

There was a mistake on Bill‘s initial application filed on May 26, 1998 for his Bill Lawrence mark regarding his place of birth. It was immediately corrected by Bill and his attorney at the trademark office -- evidenced by his "Bill Lawrence Certificate of Registration” appropriately printed which he received from the Trademark Office shortly after the mark was approved on December 28, 1999.................It’s well known, even by Bill himself, where he was born!

In the late 60's and early 70's when Bill had his custom shop in Greenwich Village, Larry Dimarzio joined his team. When Bill left to work with Gibson in the early 70's, Larry continued with Bill's direction and therefore, Larry Dimarzio started the first replacement pickup company.--Becky Lawrence 12:57, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please stop using this article to pursue a court case. This is a biography. Please only include biographical information. -Will Beback 22:13, 29 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This article is a biography of a person whose legal name is apparently "Willi Lorenz Stich", according to the court records. Therefore I am going to move the biography to that page. The article under the name "Bill Lawrence" should cover the business. -Will Beback 23:32, 29 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Bill Lawrence and Willi L Stich share one social security number, and both names have been registered in the United States for more than 35 years. Therefore, Bill Lawrence/Willi L Stich are legally the same person. Will BeBack is incorrect with his above statement.--Becky Lawrence 01:15, 30 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Social security cards issued before 1972 do not prove your identity. It was issued for Social Security and Tax purpose and not for identification. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.27.70.149 (talk • contribs) .

I was going by the ~~court records~~ trademark office records, which use "Stich" as the legal name of the subject. If you have a source to indicate otherwise, please add it. Thanks, -Will Beback 02:19, 30 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This part of this discussion is completely ridiculous! Do you question the identity of the tens of millions of Americans of foreign birth who have anglicized their names? Firstly, there are post-1972 court documents that show that the US courts indeed recognise Bill Lawrence as a legal identity of the person also known as Willi Lorenz Stich. Therefore, I’m sure nobody wants to challenge and be in breach of the US courts on such a matter. Secondly, every music magazine for decades has interviewed the person/personality known as Bill Lawrence. He has also been a recording artist under that name! Very few people know who Willi Lorenz Stich is. All these attempts to erase a legal and world famous identity are scandalous. Maybe we should make a complete and utter farce of Wikipedia and list every famous person by his/her birth name just to satisfy those that have an agenda against the man the world knows as Bill Lawrence.

As Will said, if there are documents recognizing Bill Lawrence as the gentleman's legal name, could you please specifically identify what those documents are or provide a link if they are accesible via the web? Or perhaps you can specify which magazines/articles you're referring to? No one is suggesting that the identity be erased, simply pointing out that some evidence of your claim is required (see WP:CITE for information on our policy about references). Without references, anyone could make a claim to be someone named Bill Lawrence and I'm sure you wouldn't want the wrong person using that identity, right? Shell ^babelfish 21:48, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Edit war

The recent deletion of the trademark article, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bill Lawrence (trademark), the dispute appears to have returned here. I have protected the article in an effort to get the editors to resolve the matter on this talk page. Everyone should be aware of the polivy governing biographies of living persons, WP:BLP. It sets strict standards for inclusion of information, particularly concerning the sourcing. Every statement that might be disputed should be sourced with a link or footnote immediately following it. I urge the editors to agree on what can be reliably sourced and neutrally presented. I suggest that we focus on the life of the guitarmaker rather than any trademark issues. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 08:22, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

is this mess resolved YET??

Willi Stich changed his name to Bill Lawrence
Lawrence started an eponymous company
Lawrence made guitar pickups
these pickups developed a reputation for quality
at some point Lawrence lost control of his company
Lawrence went off and launched another pickup company

Now, call me Pollyanna, but it seems to me there should be multiple articles, at least—

Bill Lawrence (the life of the man, including a section on Wilde Pickups and the "Wilde Bill" persona)
Bill Lawrence Pickups (a.k.a. the history of LSR -- heck, Fender is Fender whether owned by Leo or CBS or whoever)

The argument that "'Bill Lawrence' is a registered trade name" is being applied in an utterly bogus manner -- he WAS associated with LSR and its products, and therefore he will forever BE associated with LSR and its products. In fact, prolonging this ludicrous struggle only serves to prolong and emphasize his role.

The guy deserves to have his tale properly told, and without whining, blaming, and finger-pointing. And the legacy he left deserves to be described properly and objectively, without pseudolegalistic prior censorship.
Weeb Dingle (talk) 08:02, 9 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, yeah, I'm going to have to do something about this. Glancing over Wikipedia articles about electric guitars, I note most that mention "Bill Lawrence^® pickups" route to Bill Lawrence (guitar maker) even though Bill Lawrence (the man) had NOTHING to do with Bill Lawrence (the company) for years preceding his death. Any suggestion that recent "Bill Lawrence" pickups have anything to do with Bill Lawrence (the man) or even with his design work is, at best, spurious, & on any case only adds confusion -- rather anti-Wikipedia. Hence (& IMO), I push for any mention of such pickups be described explicitly as "Bill Lawrence^®" unlinked to this article.

(The only exception I can foresee would be if someone has a specific instrument with pickups clearly old enough to have been created when BL was still with BL, if you know what I mean.)
Weeb Dingle (talk) 21:07, 11 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

one step toward unsnarling

Part I

The company "Bill Lawrence Pickups" was founded in 1965 in order to market the pickups created by professional guitarist Willi Lawrenz Stich, at the time working under the stage name "Billy Lorento" but that name was already committed to Framus (the "Billy Lorento" 5/120 model), hence "Bill Lawrence." (Stich also endorsed Fender in Europe.)

The company was founded by Jzchak Wajcman (a.k.a. EZ Wajcman, and that is NOT sarcastic, that's how he's signed himself); whether Wajcman and Stich were partners or owner/employee, or Wajcman had somehow licensed the "Bill Lawrence" name, is still clouded. At some point, Stich legally changed his name. And Wajcman somehow obtained total control of the company, and claimed something like prior ownership of the "Bill Lawrence" name.

In any case, per BillLawrenceUSA.com and signed by apparent owner EZ Wajcman, Jzchak Wajcman dba “Bill Lawrence USA“, is not associated with the designer Bill Lawrence since 1984. So, no Bill Lawrence pickup since at least 1984 has had Bill Lawrence anywhere near it.

The pickup line's origin is no guarantee of what's become of it. Meaning no disrespect to Mr Wajcman, if he were to decide to begin selling cheap generic $5 pickups as "Bill Lawrence," there is nothing legally to stop him (unless there's some sort of explicit contractual expectation of hewing true to the original design & philosophy thenceward, but I'm unaware of anything of the sort).

In like manner, guitarist/inventor Les Paul should not be held responsible for what's become of the Les Paul model Gibson guitar, or Clarence "Leo" Fender blamed for some laughably terrible missteps (whether design or corporate) made in his name. At the same time, the owners/licensors of "Les Paul" and "Fender" have no right to claim (or even imply) the endorsement of their namesakes.

Part II

Per http://billlawrence.com/Pages/Bill_Lawrence_Documentary.htm --

In 1965, Bill Lawrence, Nathan Grossman and Jzchak Wajcman started Lawrence Electrosounds in Munich Germany. ... In 1966, Jzchak Wajcman bought the shares from Grossman and became the majority stockholder. By 1970, Jzchak closed the company, and sold the equipment to Hoyer Guitars. Jzchak moved to Israel, and Bill made the US his permanent residence. They did not meet again until 1982.

In 1975, Don Redmon and Bill Lawrence started Lawrence Sound Research, Inc (LSR) in Nashville, Tennessee and in 1978, Bill bought Redmon's shares and became the sole stockholder of LSR.

In 1982, Bill made a bad deal with a New York based distributor, "On-Site-Music" ... Bill says that this was the last time he ever signed a contract without precisely reading every page ten times before signing. Bill knew at the meeting that in a few months his company would be in big trouble.

Originally, when Jzchak moved to the US, he wanted to dabble in real estate and bought three houses. He could not make his mortgage payments so Bill helped him out. ... Bill gave him, for his legal help against On-Site - and without any payment from Jzchak - fifty percent of Lawrence Sound Research. Now, they were partners again.

By the end of 1982, Jzchak and Bill started a second corporation, The Lawrence Connection (TLC), in Cardiff, California, with an outlet in Hollywood on Sunset Boulevard. Bill was president of both LSR and TLC. Bill ran the production, and Jzchak ran the sales.

On-Site sued again in December of 1983. The Third National Bank, who had financed the company during the lawsuits, became nervous and threatened them with foreclosure. In March of 1984, Bill had a family emergency. His father had passed away, so he went to Germany to assist his mother. ... Jzchak went to the Third National Bank and told them that Bill had left the country for good, and he wanted to make a deal to buy the company's collateral for himself. The bank couldn't legally make an agreement with Jzchak because he was Bill's partner so Jzchak represented himself as president of "Degalim, Inc", a company based out of Israel. The bank agreed to these terms, and Degalim bought the collateral from the bank. Jzchak paid the bank with Bill's money.

The situation with On-Site was not yet over because they still wanted Bill's name. To sue Degalim and Wajcman didn't make any sense to them, so they continued to sue Bill. With no money in Germany, he couldn't come to the trial so he lost in default. ... Bill stood in Germany broke with a $1,156,250.00 judgment against him in the US. He couldn't even go home to his family. Now, Jzchak had a free hand and [operated] as "Jzchak Wajcman Degalim". ... In 1987, Bill came back to the US when On-Site ... had disappeared without paying their attorneys. Bill paid their attorneys and was finally released from the judgment. By that time, Bill was working with Gibson.

To the best of my knowledge, none of the foregoing has been successfully contested by any involved party -- contrary evidence welcomed.

Part III

The following is somewhat less pat. Per https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?posts/3980905/ --

Bill was careful not to have his whole "Bill Lawrence" name as part of the company assets.... Wajcman's copy [of the agreement] had a last sentence not there and was just empty white space on the paper. But Bill Lawrence still had the original which showed that the "Bill Lawrence" name was only on loan to the original company and not its property. ...

Bill Lawrence did not sue Wajcman to stop Wajcman from using the Bill Lawrence name with any urgency because Bill is anti-litigious by personality. Because Wajcman used the trademark without legal opposition from Bill for 15 years or so, Wajcman was able to legally secure the "trademark" only -- not "allegedly" because he acquired it in a legitimate fashion from Bill.

HOWEVER, Bill Lawrence retains the Bill Lawrence "service mark" name

And per a site for hardcore fans of pickups made under the auspices of Bill Lawrence (the man), http://billlawrencereview.com/Jzchak_EZ_Wajcman --

Since 1984, [Wajcman] has been ... doing business as Bill Lawrence Products, Bill Lawrence Guitar Pickups, and Bill Lawrence USA without the involvement of Bill Lawrence (Willi Lorenz Stich). ... [These] are trademark "Bill Lawrence" pickups. ... Pickups made By Mr. Wajcman are commonly confused with pickups built by pickup designer Bill Lawrence( Willi Lorenz Stich), or pickups that Bill Lawrence (Willi Lorenz Stich) has designed for or licensed to other companies.

I offer that latter if only to demonstrate how even well-intentioned comments seem to further confusion.

now what?

Again, I propose two articles.

The first (under the present heading Bill Lawrence (guitar maker) would be a biography of Willi Stich and a proper list of his accomplishments; there are certainly plenty of sources online.

The second would be something like Bill Lawrence (guitar pickups) in an attempt to pry (however slightly) the story of the man from the story of the company -- BOTH of which richly deserve to be told with depth and clarity.
Weeb Dingle (talk) 22:36, 11 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

legalistic thoughts

Per the Part II above, while I am most certainly NOT an attorney, I worked for years with such, coordinating discovery (mostly IP-related), and some of this looks very familiar. Don't know that it bears any inclusion in either proposed article, but it may usefully inform any participating editors.

One bit that stands out is the "common law" way in which Wajcman had control of the name, by BL's 15-year lack of suit. This is not unlike someone who chooses to occupy a previously empty piece of property, via adverse possession or squatting.

But such control can be adjudged to specifically NOT imply actual ownership, merely control for immediate personal benefit. The person who controls it doesn't necessarily EVER establish any right to sell, let, or sublet the property, or pass it along to heirs.

My mere lay opinion is that the heirs of Bill Lawrence (the man) coud have grounds to clear ownership of the name whenever Wajcman in any way moves to hand the name to someone else. Bringing in partners (even investors) might be considered to lean in that direction. And a case might be made that any clear abuse of the name's inherent goodwill value -- such as the previously mentioned "$5 pickup" scenario -- might weigh heavily to weaken Wajcman's claim.
Weeb Dingle (talk) 23:26, 11 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]