Talk:Terra nullius

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—Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.228.129.11 (talk • contribs)

legal fiction has a technical legal meaning (which is described in the Wikipedia article on it.)

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Based on the relevant legal documents, I believe this page title should be spelt "Terra nullius" - but I don't want to tackle the reversing of the redirection yet.

zig 12:03, 8 Feb 2004 (UTC)

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There is no way that the section of the article under 'Discussions' is NPOV. It's simply an attack on Reynolds, not presenting the other side at all. |

A somewhat nebulous criticism, but I see your point. I think I might rework some of that. --bainer (talk) 07:54, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Australia section

The section needs to explain Reynolds arguments in more detail to be NPOV. It should explain what Reynolds is arguing and any evidence he uses to support his position. Criticism of his position should be attributed to a notable critic. Somebody notable must have written some sort of critique rebutting Reynolds's argument, say an Australian historian a major Australian university for example. As it stands, the section reads like "Reynolds has aurgued...but he is wrong becuase..." which isn't NPOV. --Cab88 11:33, 30 January 2006 (UTC).

March 2006: I have now added to the page a reference to Michael Connor's book, based on his PhD thesis: check it out. I think that this should be considered "notable" enough. - Michael in Canberra [no relation to Connor] ...

This section is quite incredible! It is extremely POV from a political perspective, and tries to use questionable historical documents to support a purely legalistic interpretation of what was a common and unfortunate "unofficial" policy of the day. The simple reason there's no documents supporting "Terra Nullius" is that there was no recognition that Aboriginal people were "settled" at all. Aboriginals were considered to be "nomads" as they had no known permenent settlements or habitations as Europeans understood them. Cab88 has a good point above, but there has to be some way of reconciling the cultural reality, as well as the documented history in a truely NPOV document. After all, "history" is written by the winners... Johnpf 03:16, 3 March 2006 (UTC).

More from Michael in Canberra: - This is quite ridiculous. Terra nullius is (- the Latin gives it away) a legal doctrine. No-one - least of all the first British Governor, Arthur Phillip, - imagined Australia was in fact uninhabited. To the contrary, the lettter Phillip bore from the King expresssly referred to the native people and gave him instructions about policy towards them. Terra nullius was NOT the name for an unofficial policy.

Whoever made the recent changes did a pretty good job - I'm not convinced it's NPOV, but it doesnt read like a rant by an aging Qld cattle farmer any more. Johnpf 18:14, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

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I believe there's still a major problem with the article's section on Australia. The more I look at it, the more convinced I am that the entire section needs to be moved into another article, and a short, READABLE summery be placed there along the lines of "There has been mixed interpretations as to whether the concept of Terra Nullius was ever used to justify the settlement of Australia. There is no doubt that there is no documentation thjat shows the application of Terra Nullius at the time, however in the 1970s it was ajudged by Justice Blackburn to have aplied. This has since been invalidated by subsequent court cases. Refer History wars,Native title and a specific article on this in Oz." . Most of this article is currently not about Terra Nullius, but is about Australia's issues with the concept.

The rest of the article needs to be edited into something that normal people can read - has most of this been lifted from some kind of really hard-to-read textbook? Look at the 'Rationale' section: there are 7 sentences, with 360 words, meaning an average sentence length of 51 words per sentence. Most people start to struggle after about 25 words per sentence! What's written there no doubt makes sense to lawyers, but not to "normal people", and I doubt that WP would be where a lawyer would be seeking a definition of the term. Can someone who knows what that 'Rationale' section means turn it into something accessible? Johnpf 01:14, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

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"As in Antiquity peace was considered an exceptional condition between states, only established by peace treaty, war being their natural rapport, any territory that was not explicitly recognized as legitimately possessed by a treaty partner was considered free to be legitimately occupied, even by offensive war." This is a mad one sentence opening paragraph, has it been lifted from an old copy of Britannica? Are there any references or attributions to this POV? (MarkG Feb 2006)

I just made very minor changes to the end of the Mabo section, because December 2004 is no longer "very recent", and because the phrase "40% ... is now in the hands of Aboriginal peoples" sounded like it was being spat out from between clenched teeth of someone who was seething at the thought. 86.9.201.247 (talk) 18:27, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I think the main problem with the Australia section is the discussion of the current law. Mabo was undoubtedly of immense importance but now native title is decided by reference to the Native Title Act 1993 (Cth). Also, while there may be significant percentages of land 'owned' by Aboriginal people, a reasonable amount of this (if not the majority) would be due to legislative schemes other than native title itself. Cgaaus (talk) 00:10, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

—— There is a conflict between the NSW supreme court case referencing terra nullius from 1836 and the following Michael Connor quote. Either the NSW supreme court case is misquoted, or Connor is wrong, and should be removed. If Connor provides concrete support for his assertions, perhaps they can be summarised. --Blibbler (talk) 16:45, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

In the History of Australia "In 1835, the British Colonial Office issued the Proclamation of Governor Bourke, implementing the legal doctrine of terra nullius upon which British settlement was based, reinforcing the notion that the land belonged to no one prior to the British Crown taking possession of it and quashing any likelihood of treaties with Aboriginal peoples." Bourke does not use the term "Terra Nullius" in this proclamation. Seasalt (talk) 01:25, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

In Defense of Henry Reynolds

Whoever wrote that line about Henry Reynolds and "his many followers on the left of Australian history" has obviously not picked up the "Journal of Australian Historical Studies"( Vol 32 issue#117), or Henry Reynolds's "Aboriginal Identity". As Merete Borch explains in "Rethinking the Origins of Terra Nullius" (2001) the legal doctrine of terra nullius was not established until the 19th century, well after the beginnings of European colonialization (224). Most importantly, Borch asserts that it was the establishment of New South Wales in Australia as a penal colony that played a huge significance in the transformation of terra nullius from an archaic agreement between territories into an international doctrine of law (224). Additionally, Henry Reynolds in his book "Aboriginal Identity" in no way makes the assertion that the colonial powers believed that "Australia was 'a tract of territory practically unoccupied, without settled inhabitants or settled law.'" In fact, upon reading the book one would find that Reynolds clearly states that terra nullius coupled property rights and sovereignty in English common law. With the Mabo case however, according to Reynolds “demolished the concept of terra nullius in respect of property” (3). Instead terra nullius would be upheld with respect to sovereignty of Aboriginal people. I highly recommend anyone to read some of Reynolds's work. In doing so, such a ignorant comment could be understood and forgiven. —This unsigned comment was added by Bakerflip12 (talk • contribs) .

Reynolds shouldn't be the centre of discussion at all. When I finish my rewrite of Mabo v Queensland I'll come back and rewrite the section on TN in Australia. --bainer (talk) 07:00, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Reynolds should be the centre of discussion in as much as much of the animus and accusations of inaccuracy are directed against him.--Jack Upland 10:07, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Rewrite for Australia

What we need is:

• Evidence for when TN was first used as a term in Australia - rather than simple assertions it was first used in the 1970s or 90s!
• Quotations (or at least citations) of Henry Reynolds and others putting their view.
• A general rewrite to make it more than a regurgitation of Connor's argument.--Jack Upland 00:54, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks to John of Patmos for providing the relevant court decisions.--Jack Upland 00:12, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

John Quiggin says that "Reynold’s research showed that this doctrine [sc. terra nullius] was not asserted as part of the British claim to sovereignty over Australia." [1] Where is the reference that shows its being relied on in the later eighteenth century? Starple (talk) 17:30, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

Someone is demanding citations for these court decisions. They are citations. A website or magazine might be easily to check but it isn't more reliable!--Jack Upland 23:41, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Copies of the decisions can be found at [http://www.law.mq.edu.au/scnsw/ "Macquarie University, Decisions of the Superior Courts of New South Wales, 1788-1899"]-- John of Patmos 10:28AM, 6 September 2006 (AEST)

I'll put that in.--Jack Upland 11:26, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Antarctica and the moon

Is it correct to say that Antarctica is terra nullius? My understanding is that several nations claim sovereignty over all or part of it, but they have each agreed (by treaty) not to enforce their claims, and each other signatory to the treaty has agreed not to make fresh claims. It might be more accurate to describe the moon as terra nullius pursuant to the Outer Space Treaty. Legis 15:33, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, "terra nullius" really means "empty land", not "no one's land", and Antartica is certainly that.--Jack Upland (talk) 12:01, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't matter what the literal Latin meaning is, since it has a specific legal meaning. But I also have a problem with the current text regarding Antarctica: it doesn't matter at all that it is not "capable of supporting human habitation without supplies from outside." That is completely irrelevant to the meaning of Terra nullius. 38.104.206.50 (talk) 19:22, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

I think the Latin meaning is relevant. The term is not used when the land in question is deemed inhabited.--Jack Upland (talk) 10:12, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

The Latin meaning is literally "Land of no one", not "empty land" which would be terra vasta. RandomCritic (talk) 11:35, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

By the same reasoning, the moon can't be terra nullius. It would be luna nullius, but possibly inhabited by it's native people, the lunatics. Msaunier (talk) 05:36, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

I stand corrected, but I still think the concept is that there is no fixed habitation.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:16, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Legitimate reasons for war

such as the moral principles of Christianity or Islam, which reversed the 'natural war' by considering peace normal (even God's will) unless there were legitimate reasons for war,

Descriptions of warfare in classical antiquity do not focus around the debate of the natural/unnatural state of warfare as it existed. War in the ancient period was more of a seasonal occurrance, rather than a state of mind as it existed for the leadership. Territorial conquest came hand in hand with providing 'booty' for the army concerned, for this was frequently the only method of payment for service. Monetary contributions came from 'state' coffers, and were used to feed and train people in the fighting style of the day. In the Fuedal period, warfare was an appendage to the desire of the state leader to expand his personal power (and therefore his reputation as a leader of men). An army would form, frequently after the harvest period, and continue on 'campaign' as a matter of course; territorial exchange or the shifting of accepted borders had more to do with control of taxation or trade, and could even be perpetrated as a simple method of keeping agricultural workers 'busy' until the change of seasons, a defeat, or a retreat. Even a succesful military group would often break up simply to return to cultivated fields for replanting and harvest before the cycle would begin again. To call peace an "unnatural state" is to misconstrue the entire concept; peace/war were one concept, and campaigning conducted as long as success and favouable weather continued. Fighting was frequently seen as something that only males participated in. Greek history is full of examples of war conducted in this fashion. If we look at the conduct of Armies in the Peloponyisian period, it becomes obvious that the ebb and flow of conflict matched the seasonal variation of the climate in the terrain fought over. Women were often seen as fair 'booty', and carted off wholesale as carnal prizes, or sold into slavery to finance the next campaigning season. Alexander of Macedon took a wife as war booty (the Sogdian ROXANNA), specifically for the purpose of fathering a dynasty. His consort and lover, HEPHAESTION was, in actuality, his heir apparent until his untimely death advanced the need for Alexander to procreate.(Christofurry (talk) 17:02, 14 February 2008 (UTC))

Dunno about this sentence - what religions (especially at the time referred) consider(ed) legitimate reasons for war don't seem to reverse the idea of natural war much if at all. 141.151.181.162 23:30, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Grammar/Style

The line

"Some Zionist leaders considered Palestine as terra nullius during the period of Jewish immigration in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, but there was no legal void as some Ottoman laws are still invoked even before Israeli courts in this century."

doesn't look like it was written by a native speaker. Normally, "this century" applies exclusively to the current century (in this case the 21st). However, I have taught ESL for quite some time, and seen a number of other languages where the tendency to say "this" refers to something explicitly stated earlier in the sentence ("in the late 19th and early 20th centuries").

What do you think? Deserving of clarification? samwaltz 18:42, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

No, "this century" means now. Ottoman laws are still invoked in Israeli courts now. Israeli courts did not exist in the "late 19th and early 20th centuries".--Jack Upland (talk) 08:20, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Copied out of 19th century text book?

The style of the opening section feels archaic, has it been copied out of an old book? "In antiquity peace was considered an exceptional condition between states, only established by peace treaty, war being their natural rapport".

• "In antiquity" is a strange expression - needs further definition.
• "war being their natural rapport" - from some 19th century philosopher? is this legal language? The concept of war as being a 'natural state' is a philosophical position (let alone discussions of the concept of 'natural') - can we have references to the people who put forward this position?

--mgaved 11:13, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

The Moon

A 1969 Time article states that the U.S. and USSR both have declared luna to be terra nullius, explicitly using that phrase. Someone who's not currently at work should look into this, don't you think? --Kizor 08:45, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Fuzzy arguments

Look at this:

Although Australia was clearly not unoccupied, scattered and nomadic Aboriginal groups would have been widely perceived, through European eyes of the time, as evidence of a barbarous country and thus no legal impediment to settlement.

Britain had no problems with asserting imperial dominion over India, Hong Kong etc (and this included some small settlement). The advantage in Australia, South Africa, and North America was that sparse population made large scale settlement easier. It's a practical not an ideological issue!--Jack Upland (talk) 12:14, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

No, it is an ideological issue. By claiming terra nullius, the British did not have to recognize Aboriginal land rights, and all land became Crown Land. No treaties were necessary. Things would have been legally different if the settlement was defined as a conquest. 86.9.201.247 (talk) 18:19, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Things might have been legally different, but the passage above overstates the case. The British Empire was the largest empire the world has ever seen, yet we are supposed to believe that its expansion only progressed through adherence to obscure legal doctrines. Pull the other one.--Jack Upland (talk) 07:12, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

There was nothing obscure about these legal doctrines. They were at the forefront of the minds of the people representing the Crown (government). I suggest you read about the history of New Zealand and the Treaty of Waitangi, which sharply contrasts what happened in Australia. 86.9.201.247 (talk) 12:21, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Why don't you read what I wrote?--Jack Upland (talk) 10:14, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

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The difference between Australia and many other places (including New Zealand) is that the pre-British inhabitants of Australia had no system of political leadership that Europeans could understand, and the British couldn't really find anyone who seemed to have the authority to sign a treaty. By contrast, plenty of treaties were signed in New Zealand, Africa, Asia, North America etc. with peoples who had recognized chiefs, kings, etc., and I don't see why colonialist authorities would be so much more racist in Australia than in all those other places... AnonMoos (talk) 06:44, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

I think this is an overly legalistic view of the issue. The status legally of North American natives might have been better than Australian Aborigines, but the reality isn't. While there were no treaties signed in Australia, there were also no major wars (in comparison with other places). The legal aspect should not totally dominate the discussion.--Jack Upland (talk) 09:59, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Well, Terra Nullius is a legal doctrine, and there was plenty of racism and shoddy practices in other parts of the world, but very little Terra Nullius (at least by the British). Australia was the only large quasi-continental area of the world almost exclusively populated by what anthropologists call "band"-level societies at the time of first intensive contact with Europeans (i.e. with few or no real "tribes", much less any "chiefdoms" or "states"). As I said, the contrast on a formal legal level between Australia and New Zealand is extreme, and this seems to be due more to the fact that in New Zealand there were chiefs in recognized positions of authority with whom treaties could be signed, rather than in any decision beforehand by the British to proceed differently in the two areas... AnonMoos (talk) 11:16, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

While that may or may not be true, the west coast of Canada, which was settled at a similar time to Australia had tribes with established chiefs, yet no treaties were signed. --81.171.97.66 (talk) 17:48, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Precisely. The issue was practical. Hence the doctrine of terra nullius did not determine imperial expansion. QED.--Jack Upland (talk) 09:04, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

"Rationale"

I don't know how anyone can feel comfortable with the unsubstantiated statements in this section. The arbitrary attributions to de Vattel and Locke have now been capriciously challenged because they don't fit a passer-by's own original research. If we can't have scrupulous documentation for a contentious clause ("terra nullius applied to uncultivated land"), surely there is no justification for keeping it, or the whole section , for that matter. Bjenks (talk) 13:35, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

History of the term

I don't mind that so much of the article centers on Australia but shouldn't there be a lead section on the history of the term? Who decided that only empty land (or land with uncivilized peoples) has available for claiming? And when? Did each claiming country decide on its own rules for what made a civilized people? How has legal opinions change over time (other than in Australia?) WikiParker (talk) 00:58, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Well, in fact the British Empire and other European empires did "claim" territory that was indisputably inhabited. I think the patterns of European settlement are based on historical convenience not ideology. The areas of major European settlement are: the Americas, southern Africa, and the Pacific (Australia, New Zealand, Hawaii). This settlement occurred over several centuries and in different contexts. I don't think there is a legal doctrine that covers this. Rather the legal doctrine was used in various contexts - and generally after the conquest had occurred.--Jack Upland (talk) 10:21, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

• • • I think one has to keep in mind there was a balance, a mixture....of several factors. Such as 1. Evidence of substantial permanent settlements. 2. Existence of a governmental entity capable of entering into negotiations. 3. Ability of the other side to resist or fight back -- to make war. There is a reason why Great Britain could claim lands in the New World... or Australia... or even India or parts of China...but not, say, claim Vienna for the crown. Why? In Australia -- no substantial permanent settlements, no leaders or government, and no ability to fight back. In the New World - chiefs who could negotiate, limited ability to fight back, but no major cities or settlements. In India -- obvious permanent settlements and leaders, but limited ability to resist a superior military force. But Austria -- well, it satisfies 1, 2 and 3...so no, the British crown couldn't claim Vienna in the same way it did Canada, Australia or parts of India. Chesspride 172.164.6.133 (talk) 07:41, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

Bir Tawil/Kingdom of Nikoku

I've made some notes about the "Kingdom of Nikoku" claims at Talk:Bir Tawil -- Boing! said Zebedee 11:20, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

West Bank

This section contains a non-sequitur. The reason why the West Bank might be considered "terra nullius" is that the British very carefully refrained from handing over any territory or sovereignty to anyone as they withdrew in May 1948, and extremely few countries recognized Transjordan's claimed annexation from 1948-1967. Jerusalem is a separate and more complicated issue... AnonMoos (talk) 06:50, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

The view that the west bank is terra nullius, conflicts fundamentally with the view of the ICJ in its Wall opinion. Until this is recognised, I suggest (from a legal point of view) that this section of the page be removed. --81.98.135.112 (talk) 21:44, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

I've just reverted this edit, as it's a sourced statement and described as being controversial. Feel free (within the bounds of a neutral point of view) to expand the description of why it's controversial to include the position of the ICJ. — OwenBlacker (Talk) 23:09, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Still contains a non-sequitur, since it's far from clear that Jerusalem is part of the West bank for such analytical legal purposes... AnonMoos (talk) 00:50, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Anyway, there could theoretically be an interesting and valid section of this article about the West Bank -- but what's actually there in the article now doesn't fairly summarize the main arguments for terra nullius status and doesn't fairly summarize the main arguments against terra nullius status, so that like 81.98.135.112 I'm left wondering what it validly contributes in its current form... AnonMoos (talk) 04:28, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

A terra nullius is a piece of land which is claimed by no country. That is not the case with the West Bank. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:48, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

What's that remark supposed to mean in the context of this talk page discussion???? It certainly doesn't clarify any issues, or do anything to improve the article. AnonMoos (talk) 03:09, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

It means that the discussion is moot is terms of this article. If you want to discuss the political status of the West Bank. I recommend you do it on Talk:West Bank. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:32, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Whatever -- The West Bank section of the article had definite problems, but your abrasively dogmatic and apparently not very well-informed comments here on the talk page do absolutely nothing to create a cooperative and collaborative atmosphere here for discussing article improvements, and it's rather dubious whether your drastic excision on the article itself can be considered an improvement... AnonMoos (talk) 11:10, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

• • • • Curious -- what recognized country claims the (entire) West Bank? Not Israel. Not Jordan. The PLO governing body is not recognized as a governing country. The area is occupied by Israel (but not claimed by Israel), no longer claimed by Jordan, and in limbo until the Arab and Israeli sides reach a final agreement on borders. One cannot speak of a "claim" by a non-recognized nation-state. Chesspride 172.164.6.133 (talk) 07:47, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
        • The fact that you characterize Fatah as "the PLO governing body" shows your bias. What is a "governing country"? You mean because the Zionists have pushed them off most of their land, including all the best and most productive lands? Because they're occupied by an oppressor, and are thus prevented from self-actualization...these are reasons to ignore their claims outright? You must be kidding.174.89.133.125 (talk) 04:25, 1 October 2017 (UTC)

Gibraltar

Is the neutral zone between Gibraltar and Spain an example of terra nullius? Bazonka (talk) 12:34, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

No. Gibraltar and all the territory around it (including the so-called neutral zone) was part of Spain and subject to its jurisdiction until it was ceded to Great Britain. Although the actual extent of the territory ceded to Great Britain is in dispute, any territory that wasn't ceded to Great Britain remained Spanish jurisdiction. Great Britain has never relinquished jurisdiction to any of the territory either. Therefore, since the Treaty of Utrecht, either Spain or Great Britain (and now the UK) has had jurisdiction, so it's not terra nullius. CruiserBob (talk) 02:49, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Stateless persons

"The current entities that exercise jurisdiction and sovereignty rights are: [...]

• Stateless persons that do not have citizenship of any of the 222 entities."

If only that were true... — Mike Gogulski ^{↗C•@•T↗} 03:21, 12 January 2011 (UTC) (stateless ex-American since 2008)

Brezovica

The inclusion of the "isthmus" between Croatia and the Brezovica enclave is based on a source that itself explains that the Slovenian online cadaster map shows the area as Croatian not because they don't claim it, but to work around a software limitation:

According to Irena Poženel, the head of The Department for the State Border at the Surveying and Mapping Authority of the Republic of Slovenia, explained on 15 April 2009 that the "border line" that connects the exclave with the rest of interstate boundary is a line plotted for only for identification purposes in a computer program that calculates the area of the closed polygon (in this case the entire republic).

I'm removing the entry. --Angus (talk) 12:07, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

The section of the cadaster map to which that passage refers is not the "isthmus." It actually refers to a line drawn from the existing enclave connecting to the main land area. That location is several hundred meters away from the "isthmus." The map image showed a layer of boundaries superimposed upon it. These boundaries were indeed used in the software application, which requires the modeling of the cadastral parcels as contiguous in order to obtain correct calculation results. When this image had been revealed, doubt had arisen about whether the existing enclave was in fact an enclave, with the answer resting on the possibility that the line indicated an exceedingly narrow physical, territorial connection to the main land area. The answer provided by the Slovenian authority was that the software model did not depict an actual physical connector, and thus, what had been known to be an enclave was and is the enclave of Brezovica.

The reason given for the previous deletion is therefore not applicable. I have restored this part of the article. Jeff in CA (talk) 00:20, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Mabo

I've removed the section on Mabo, which appears not to have ever had any sourcing and was flagged as uncited. Mabo and Wik weren't about terra nullius, according to the High Court decisions. They were about land ownership and use, a different concept. The court found that there was a system of land ownership in the Torres Strait, pre-existing European colonisation. They did not find any civilised government, which is the natural requirement for any diplomatic negotiation and sovereignty. This is distinct from (say) New Zealand, where the aboriginal people had cities, identifiable government structures and a national identity, as evidenced by the Treaty of Waitangi. If any editor can find a formal source - as opposed to lay opinions - linking Mabo etc, to a determination of terra nullius, then please put it forward. --Pete (talk) 19:06, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

What definition ?

Why on earth has the terra nullius at Croatia been taken off? If there's no good reason I'll restore it. Humshom (talk) 10:17, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

I was a little surprised to see that, but I guess it makes sense. The logic is that it's not actually a terra nullius as the Croatian government has released a statement defining it as a current border dispute, rather than a situation where sovereignty has been relinquished.[2] Ditto the Croat/Slovenian one.[3] Bromley86 (talk) 13:38, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

It's back. Is the Principality of Ongal needed on it? They're more of a roleplay than anything else. Humshom (talk) 10:58, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

I'd leave it for the moment. After all, they're no different really from Enclava, and that would currently need to be kept just because it's the whole of the C-S section. I'll ping Mootros to see if he still wants the two sections removed - no sense in figuring out whether Ongal should be in if the sections end up going. Bromley86 (talk) 13:43, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

If it must be in, then at least get it right. The largest pocket was first claimed (and is still claimed) by Paraduin. Rothly (talk) 15:47, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Support? Bromley86 (talk) 20:00, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Quite a few micronations claimed the pockets before what the article makes it out to be. South Maudlandia and Humanytaria both claim areas of pocket 3 but they don't have any evidence other than a few primary sources. That's the reason why only Liberland, Enclava and Ongal are mentioned. Still, if Paraduin was to be mentioned it would make sense to note these as well. I think there was an Autistic state as well, but It's extremely inactive. I can get you any evidence if need be. Also, can we trust this Bulgarian news network? Humshom (talk) 20:33, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Good point. I'd glanced at the WP entry, but, looking at it properly, the WP Eurochicago.com article was almost entirely unsupported. So it's probably not the best source for this sort of thing. Bromley86 (talk) 21:05, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for drawing my attention to this discussion. The section about "Land portions along the Danube river" is factually incorrect. The cited sources state exactly the opposite that it is not Terra nullis.

In any case, regardless of the fact that the border has not yet been finally determined, the area concerned does not involve no man’s land (terra nullius) which could be subject to occupation by a third party.

"On Virtual Narratives at Croatia’s Borders". Croatian Ministry of Foreign and European Affairs. 17 July 2015. Endnote

Please revert to the last version to remove factual inaccuracy and original research. Thanks! Mootros (talk) 07:52, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

The question remains though, whether the Croatian point of view is the (only) one to follow. To the best of my knowledge there is no international law that says disputed areas that aren't part of either side's claim can't be claimed by third parties, but I'm not entirely sure about that. Rothly (talk) 22:08, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

Terra nullis is a pre 19th century concept when places on this earth were not claimed and does not apply to border disputes as a result of geopolitical changes. The fact that several claims (legitimate or not) exist makes it entirely obsolete to talk about unclaimed land. It might not be even desirable to include these this case in a trivia section of article that someone is making a case for a micro nation by invoking this historical concept. Mootros (talk) 01:00, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

As confusion seems to remain,the article clearly states that Terra nullis requires some form of discovery that precedes anything else. This makes it impossible to talk about Terra nullis after the geopolitical changes in 20th century Europe. There was no discovery of some land portions along the Danube river, after it was supposedly abandoned. Mootros (talk) 01:20, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Since the 19th century the most generous settled view has been that discovery accompanied by symbolic acts give no more than "an inchoate title, an option, as against other states, to consolidate the first steps by proceeding to effective occupation within a reasonable time.

I. Brownlie, Principles of Public International Law 146 (4th ed.1990)

Unclaimed land is identical to terra nullis. Land that is not claimed is terra nullis. The circumstances surrounding the manner in which the land is unclaimed is irrelevant. The danube areas are clearly terra nullis if they are unclaimed, and the published boundry claim lines clearly show there are unclaimed areas and therefore are terra nullis.XavierGreen (talk) 15:14, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

It's not what our sources say. Mootros (talk) 01:14, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

None of the sources you cited have stated otherwise.XavierGreen (talk) 15:17, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

The standard definition of terra nullis is unclaimed territory. See here [[4]], [[5]], ect.XavierGreen, [[6]] (talk) 15:20, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

Terra nullis involves discovery only in that the land must not be unknown, ie something that is terra nullis must be known to the world. It would be impossible for a country to claim land that it does not know exists.XavierGreen (talk) 15:34, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

The legal definition clearly states that some for of discovery proceeds the act of claiming terra nullis. Hence since there is no undiscovered places left on earth left, a place that has been abandoned ---after a border dispute--- cannot be terra nullis. This is precisely the case because there is no discovery of an unclaimed land. It's merely a border dispute. Legal theory and practice do not support any of the cases you are trying to include in this article. Mootros (talk) 16:02, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

A parcel of land that is unclaimed is not disputed, if it were it would be the subject of multiple claims.XavierGreen (talk) 19:44, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

The lead section says the term describes "territory which has never been subject to the sovereignty of any state, or over which any prior sovereign has expressly or implicitly relinquished sovereignty". Yugoslavia never expressly relinquished sovereignty over these patches of land. The successor states to Yugoslavia entered into a dispute over the interpretation of their borders. Is that an act of implicit relinquishing of anything according to international law? Esp. if we have an explicit claim of one of those states claiming the contrary. Can we get a reference to a reliable secondary source that corroborates this claim? --Joy [shallot] (talk) 19:33, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

Also, this is all prefaced under international law, whose disputes concern sovereign states, or at least territorial entities. How do claims from entities that are not widely recognized as territorial or sovereign make any sense under international law? --Joy [shallot] (talk) 19:39, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

• • • I think it is important to keep in mind that terra nullius -- land that belongs to no one, that is unclaimed -- carries an implicit understanding of who the "no one" consists of....that is to say, which states or entities are the determining bodies. For colonial powers, the land that "belongs to no one" would be land that is discovered and does not yet belong to another colonial (European) power. It doesn't matter whether OTHER PEOPLES are living on the land -- in the New World or Australia -- just that other European powers haven't found it or claimed it yet. Thus, if you are the first one in your European group to "find" Siam or "find" Cambodia or "find" Japan...you can lay claim to it as terra nullius...even if there are hundreds of thousands of people living in advanced cities on the land. It is claimed "by no one" of your preferred group. Now, in the 21st century, the preferred group includes all UN member states, rather than just the Great Powers of Europe. Chesspride 172.164.6.133 (talk) 07:58, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

Bir Tawil

Please participate in the discussion here. IMHO, Bir Tawil isn't a Terra Nullius so it shouldn't be given as an example here. ImTheIP (talk) 17:34, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

It doesn't seem like I'm getting my way about delisting Bir Tawil, so I have added a footnote instead. ImTheIP (talk) 10:53, 6 August 2017 (UTC)

Lead Sentence is Problematic

So the first sentence of the article is:

Terra nullius (/ˈtɛrə.nʌˈlaɪəs/, plural terrae nullius) is a Latin expression deriving from Roman law meaning "nobody's land",[1] which is used in international law to describe territory which has never been subject to the sovereignty of any state, or over which any prior sovereign has expressly or implicitly relinquished sovereignty.

Of course it is a necessary condition for any territory to be considered terra nullius that no state is claiming it. But it is not a sufficient condition. The article cites cases in Canada and Australia which the court has rejected the terra nullius claim, despite there being no sovereign state claiming the land. The ICJ has ruled similarly in the case of Western Sahara when it rejected Morocco's claim to the land based on the terra nullius principle.

I note that the lead was changed way back in 2009 and it hasn't been discussed since then. I therefore propose that it be updated to read:

Terra nullius (/ˈtɛrə.nʌˈlaɪəs/, plural terrae nullius) is a Latin expression deriving from Roman law meaning "nobody's land" and is a principle sometimes used in international law for territory that may be acquired by a state's occupation of it.

Because this is consistent with the definition given in Black's Law Dictionary. It would also be nice to add a history section to the article as the meaning of the expression has changed a lot over the years. See this article for example for an overview. ImTheIP (talk) 19:29, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

I've written the history section which I think this article is missing. Would you be so kind as to review it? You can find it here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:ImTheIP/History:_Terra_Nullius ImTheIP (talk) 02:10, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

In User:ImTheIP/History:_Terra_Nullius, Frost is NOT saying that "Terra Nullius" was a justification for seizing any and all land that an empire happened to want (which is what your lead-in sentence seems to say), but rather poses an example of a territory basically inhabited by only by "bands" without settled agriculture (in terms of the anthropological band-tribe-chiefdom-state classification system). See the comments of "06:44, 10 August 2010" and "11:16, 4 August 2011" above on this page for an analysis in similar terms... AnonMoos (talk) 16:22, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

I suppose you are right. I have now added the history section to the article and I hope it fairly summarizes the different viewpoints. ImTheIP (talk) 13:03, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

Wrong claims of terra nullius

I removed the Dixon Entrance and the Outer Space sections from the article. Terra means earth and neither celestial bodies nor international waters fit the definition. They are instead res communis. I can not find any credible terra nullius claims for either concept. It all links back to this Wikipedia article. ImTheIP (talk) 14:29, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

The Croatia-Serbia border and Croatia–Slovenia border sections appear to be the same. It is clear from reading the articles that neither of these contain any real terra nullius and no one in their right mind believes they do. Except for the "jokers" who created the micronations Liberland, Kingdom of Enclava and Autia. I don't think they carry enough weight to be listed here. At least the person who created Sealand has been running with it for several decades, these guys have not. ImTheIP (talk) 15:06, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

81.156.249.155: I'm not in favor of your edits. Even if Canada, Australia and West Sahara never was terra nullius, the legal debates that arose from these cases are important to the article. They serve as example of what courts have decided that terra nullius is not. ImTheIP (talk) 20:01, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

I am of the same opinion. Jeff in CA (talk) 02:55, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

People keep adding back Liberland. Please people, it is not enough to set up a web site to get featured on Wikipedia. Otherwise most everyone would be able to claim territory in a pocket of some dispute and get listed on this page. There is not a single authoritative claim backing Liberland up so it shouldn't be listed. Let's nip citogenesis in the bud. :) ImTheIP (talk) 15:22, 29 October 2018 (UTC)

Pronunciation

The given pronunciation seems off: /ˈtɛrə.nʌˈlaɪəs/ ≈ "TER-ah nuh-LYE-us". Is that diphthong in "nullius" a standard pronunciation used in legal circles?

1) If we're going from English phonology, it should be: /ˌtɛɹə ˈnʌliːəs/ ≈ "TER-ah NULL-ee-us".

2) Separately, there's a syllable break marker in between the words, which is weird. There should either be no syllable breaks at all (probably with a space between the words for readability), or full proper syllabification (i.e. /ˌtɛɹ.ə ˈnʌl.iː.əs/).

I'd greatly appreciate any references citing the given pronunciation, especially if there's some reasoning included, or any adjustments to my proposed transcription.

jFiander (talk) 15:04, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

I found this pronunciation guide on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cir-KkwfmE But I can't vouch for its veracity. ImTheIP (talk) 18:57, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Jfiander -- the phrase isn't included in my old standby, the Daniel Jones "English Pronouncing Dictionary". However, [nʌliːəs] would be a specifically American type of pronunciation, for which the corresponding British RP form would be [nʌlɪəs].. AnonMoos (talk) 16:00, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

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Diagram at bottom

Are you sure that the Continental Shelf surface within territorial waters only has limited jurisdiction? Because the continental shelf underground, the water surface, and within the water are all full sovereignty. --Numberguy6 (talk) 21:47, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

Croatia/Serbia map caption next to "Gornja Siga" section

This caption includes the sentence "Croatia asserts that the green portions, the largest being Gornja Siga, belong to Serbia" ("the green portions" and "belong" are in the plural, and "the largest" only makes sense if there is more than one). Although I can see several distinct yellow portions, I can only see one green one, simply marked "Siga" - "Gornja Siga" (= Upper Siga) does not appear separately, even when the image is enlarged. Perhaps Siga is divided into more than one portion, but, if so, this is not apparent from the map. So either the map or the caption needs to be changed by someone familiar with the true situation.89.212.50.177 (talk) 11:08, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

There are actually more green pockets. They are very tiny so try looking closely with the image in maximum resolution. - Alumnum (talk) 08:09, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

Small, very remote, uninhabited, unclaimed island

In the far South Pacic Ocean, very far generally easterly of New Zealand, in addition to some charted phantom islands and reefs that probably do not exist anymore if ever (Maria Theresa Reef et al.), at least one small, bare, uninhabited island has been reliably reported and described. It is bare rocks or coral gravel with no trees, over 500 feet long permanent dry land at high tide. It is extremely remote. It has not appeared on any British or American published nautical charts that I have (unlike numerous phantom islands), but it is described in official publications. As far as I know, it has never been landed upon. It is not claimed by any country, nor even by any purported micronation. The material I have does not give it a name. Because of its small size, it would be alleged not to qualify as an "inhabitable island" under some treaties and court decisions (like most of the numerous Spratly Islands islets) which exclude mere rocks, cays and banks, so some people may deny that it qualifies as genuine terra nullius. One prominent HAM radio DX operator has contemplated visiting. I'm not going to add the island to the main Terra nullius article or anywhere in WP unless I can find a reliable WP-citable reference that does not disclose the island's latitude and longitude. - 02:08, 30 October 2018‎ 70.112.90.106

"I'm not going to add the island to the main Terra nullius article or anywhere in WP unless I can find a reliable WP-citable reference that does not disclose the island's latitude and longitude." Sorry, but that's not what Wikipedia is about. This sounds like total bullshit to me... Ross Finlayson (talk) 02:35, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

There are reasons for excluding certain information from an otherwise accurate article. WP Living Persons has examples. In a true article about a buried treasure, it would make sense to omit the exact location. If the island Lat-Long (already public information, technically) gets publicized in WP, being terra nullius if it is, then some country that I don't like could rush a boat there and claim it (and a 200 mile radius Exclusive Economic Zone no doubt). It's reasonable to exclude the exact location, and I hope it doesn't get "outed", modern-style. (If you actually don't believe it, for now... fine.)70.112.90.106 (talk) 04:33, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

There might be others in the same rarely visited region; I don't know whether any earth observation satellites or space telescopes ordinarily focus cameras on that area. A recent computer-generated map of automatically-reported (AIS-based) ship tracks worldwide showed almost no traversals of the area.70.112.90.106 (talk) 02:08, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

The files of the Office of the Geographer in the U.S. Department of State contain a 1960's letter that claimed two islands in that general sea area as previously unclaimed res nullius. "The People's Democratic Republic of Quay", based in Florida, claimed Maria Theresa and Ernest Legouve, both of which are now classified by Wikipedia as phantom islands. There's also a description of the Quay claim in the book How to Start Your Own Country, by Erwin S. Strauss, 2nd Edition, Loompanics, Port Townsend, WA, 1984, p. 127. (Note: Some charted islands long "proved" by visiting voyagers to be nonexistent phantoms have later turned out to be real, like Bouvet Island in the South Atlantic.) 2605:6000:ED08:B300:C800:CEAE:43AF:E2E6 (talk) 23:45, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

Please note that the article is about a legal concept and not about any territory per se. As such it is not enough that these islands are uninhabited and not claimed by anyone; there must also be, or have been, a credible claim to sovereignty of these islands based on the terra nullius doctrine. There are other lists on Wikipedia more suitable for other types of No man's lands. ImTheIP (talk) 13:27, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

That comment is wrong: "... there must also be , or have been, a credible claim to sovereignty of these islands based on the terra nullius doctrine" contradicts the article's initial, court-opinion-based definition of terra nullius that it "...is a principle sometimes used in international law to describe territory that may be acquired by a state's occupation of it." (emphasis of may added). Any previously unclaimed and unoccupied territory may be claimed and occupied by any country, under the terra nullius doctrine. It has nothing to do with the existence already ("... there must also be, or have been, ...") of some credible claim. (The "credible" is an example of typical judgmental WP talk without foundation. Who made that up?) The assertion that "...the article is ... not about any territory per se" is also wrong, because the article properly lists several territories per se.2605:6000:ED08:B300:94BD:8713:D461:3910 (talk) 21:47, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

That comment defines whether territories should, in my opinion, be added to the article's list. The point is to stop citogenesis. E.g the President of Liberland thought he had a claim to territory because the Danube dispute was mistakenly listed as a terra nullius in a previous version of this Wikipedia page. ImTheIP (talk) 22:49, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

The problem of Liberland has been incorrectly explained (by Croatia and Wikipedian pundits) as the lack of terra nullius there. Serbia doesn't claim it. Croatia doesn't claim it either - but claims it's somehow disputed. If no country claims, occupies or controls a territory, it is terra nullius, logically. The problem of Liberland, like Bir Tawil, is not the lack of terra nullius, it is rather the question of whether Liberland (like the Bir Tawil claimant the Kingdom of North Sudan, and unlike Somaliland or Transdnestria) is a country with a resident population and a government that occupies and controls the territory. The Principality of Sealand is the borderline case. Liberland and the Kingdom of North Sudan seem to be on the wrong side of that border, so far. 2605:6000:ED08:B300:94BD:8713:D461:3910 (talk) 23:37, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

No, lack of claim or occupation of a territory does not imply terra nullius status. Granted, I'm sure you can find at least a dozen news articles claiming that. They are all wrong. The reason for that is because they got their definition of terra nullius from this article which only two years ago stated that it is "territory which has never been subject to the sovereignty of any state, or over which any prior sovereign has expressly or implicitly relinquished sovereignty." [7] The only authoritative interpretation we have on what terra nullius is, is from a handful of court decision that has ruled on what it is not. One example is the International Court of Justice Advisory Opinion on Western Sahara. Given that ruling, the definition of what terra nullius is, must be very narrow and essentially none of the territories laymen believe are terra nullius actually are. ImTheIP (talk) 01:20, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

"... they got their definition of terra nullius from this article which only two years ago stated ..." Funny, I already knew what "res nullius" and "terra nullius" mean -- in 1972.2605:6000:ED08:B300:59C7:E5D7:30A1:8407 (talk) 10:40, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

Similarly, see ATOW1996, which discusses recent discoveries of various small, bare, low islands north of Greenland. I haven't seen reference to claims of sovereignty (other than maybe Greenland/Denmark's), or terra nullius status, for these islands.2605:6000:ED08:B300:94BD:8713:D461:3910 (talk) 21:00, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

70.112.90.106 -- In the modern era, everything which generates an EEZ has been claimed, and it's very hard to hide any significant land mass from publicly-available satellite images. AnonMoos (talk) 09:15, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

It is doubtful whether the International Court of Justice would recognise this 500 feet long low gravel bar, hundreds or thousands of kilometres from other land, as a human-habitable sovereign territory under terra nullius doctrine, even if it were actually occupied by people (like some of the tiny, recently-enlarged and occupied Spratly islands quays, denied to be valid territory of mainland China). I think under Grotius the island would qualify as national territory of a sovereign claimant, however, if the land there is permanently above the high water mark of the sea. 2602:306:B851:70D0:200C:4D69:977F:1070 (talk) 08:08, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

Historic Neutral Zones

Neutral Zones are a form of terra nullius. Two of them in the Persian Gulf region existed in the 20th century, but these neutral zones they were called were awarded to decided nations. They are the Saudi Arabian–Iraqi neutral zone between the nations Iraq and Saudi Arabia, and Saudi–Kuwaiti neutral zone between the nations Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. In 1970, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia were given each half of their former neutral zone, and in 1991, Saudi Arabia was awarded the neutral zone instead of Iraq. 67.49.85.100 (talk) 04:56, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

Brezovica pri Metliki enclave (sic)

1. I believe that the correct name of the Croatian exclave / Slovenian enclave referred to here is, in fact, Brezovica Žumberačka.
2. The current text reads: "This claim of terra nullius is a result of a sale of a plot to a Croatian farmer from a Slovenian farmer. The land became Croatian upon the dissolution of Yugoslavia according to the farmer and Slovenia". This is hardly a helpful account – not least in that the second sentence fails to make clear which one of the two farmers involved it is referring to!
3. This piece of land does not, in any case fit the definition of terra nullius since it is neither a) unoccupied/inhabited nor b) unclaimed.

-- Picapica (talk) 01:40, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

Intro

These sentences are incorrect:

It denotes land that has never been a part of a sovereign nation-state, such as Bir Tawil. International law adopts much of Roman property law in regard to acquisition of sovereignty due to the underlying European civil law at the time of early discovery voyages such as Christopher Columbus.[3] The Roman law concepts acquisition of ownership (in international law, termed state's sovereignty) of vacant territory or terra nullius therefore continues to apply in the modern age. This concept was often applied historically to land already possessed by indigenous populations and is subject to ongoing academic and political debate.[4]

Bir Tawil has been part of a sovereign nation-state (UK). IL doesn't adopt much from Roman property law and terra nullius most likely does not apply in the modern age. And it is disputed whether historically the concept was applied. The sources used also does not discuss the terra nullius principle so I don't understand why they were added.ImTheIP (talk) 20:59, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

Gornja Siga pockets

Anyone like to argue why they belong to the article? They are afaict disputed territory and not a single authoritative source in existence calls them "terra nullius". ImTheIP (talk) 21:35, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

They are not claimed by any state, as such they are terra nullis just like Bir Tawil.XavierGreen (talk) 00:34, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

As the ICJ's opinion about West Sahara makes clear, that no sovereign state claims the territory is not enough for it to be considered terra nullius. As with everything on Wikipedia, claims should be supported with sources. The "President" of Liberland Vít Jedlička claims that the territory is terra nullius but that is in my opinion not enough. He is clearly not a reliable source.ImTheIP (talk) 12:22, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

Terra Nullis as defined in this article literally refers to territory claimed by no country, the Gornja Siga pockets are not claimed by any country. They fall into the exact same category as Bir Tawil, and must be listed here. If you have a source that states the pockets are claimed by a recognized county, provide it here.XavierGreen (talk) 16:55, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

That is not how terra nullius is defined. See the ICJ's advisory opinion on Western Sahara from 1975. Despite the fact that no country claimed the territory when it was colonized, the court ruled that it was not terra nullius. Furthermore, inferences are not allowed on wiki articles. You can't say that X is a Y because X has all the characteristics of Y. A source needs to explicitly state that X is a Y.ImTheIP (talk) 18:29, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

The very first line of the article defines it for purposes of this page, its cited as "nobody's land". The Gornja Siga pockets, like Bir Tawil, are not claimed by any recognized country and are "nobody's land".XavierGreen (talk) 01:20, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

That is an implication. "Terra nullius is X, Y is X, therefore Y is terra nullius." Wiki policies explicitly forbids such implications. The reason is because they often result in incorrect conclusions. Western Sahara also fit the article's definition. Yet the Court ruled that it was not terra nullius. So sources supporting the claim of Gornja Siga is needed, otherwise the claim is WP:OR. ImTheIP (talk) 10:34, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

The ICJ did not rule on Gornja Siga, your claims are your own opinion and synthases. I have posted a source which plainly states that Gornja Siga is terra nullis, because no country claims it.XavierGreen (talk) 15:42, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for trying to see my point of view. For a claim to be listed in "Wikipedia voice" it needs to be authoritative or trustworthy. The source you added is an article in The Telegraph by Jamie Bartlett writing "That makes it a terra nullius: sovereignty over it is claimed by no one." Bartlett is a journalist with no known expertise in international law. That makes his claim dubious. Consequently, it is not a sufficient source for listing Gornja Siga as terra nullius. ImTheIP (talk) 04:19, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

I would rather trust Jamie Bartlett than you, Mr. Trustworthy. What the hell is your problem with Gornja Siga? If you can't state a valid reason, backed up by some reliable sources that they are not the same as Bir Tawil and they shouldn't belong here, then they should be kept in the article. Using Western Sahara as an example in your argument is hilarious. Western Sahara is claimed by both Morocco and the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic, thus, it's a typical disputed territory. How would it be the same as Gornja Siga? 120.16.183.142 (talk) 12:52, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Two problems. First, adherents of the Liberland practical joke are abusing this Wikipedia article give their project undue publicity and credibility. Second, as the ICJ's advisory opinion on Western Sahara from 1975 demonstrates, that a territory is not claimed by any sovereign is not a sufficient condition for it being designated terra nullius. The opinion was over Western Sahara as it existed in 1885, almost a hundred years before before Polisario was founded. ImTheIP (talk) 16:28, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Wow. Just Wow. I can not believe all of this arguing over one little piece of unclaimed territory. Sometimes I feel that the problem with humanity is that we do too much sitting in front of the computer arguing about the most stupidest things. When it comes to both Bir Tawil, Gornja Siga and the unclaimed area in Antarctica I have raised the issue with the United Nations. But it so trifle it is not worth dealing with and they have not responded back. Do I wish that they would just settle these remaining disputes? Yes! But could you people seriously just please find something more productive to do with your time. Bored6 August 29, 2020. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bored6 (talk • contribs) 23:23, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Merge with No Man's Land

I would merge it with no man's land--Geysirhead (talk) 15:40, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

No. From the perspective of this Australian, the modern meanings of the two terms are very different. HiLo48 (talk) 22:44, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

No. The legal concepts are completely different. ImTheIP (talk) 23:18, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

No. I may be late to the party for this RFC, but the two terms mean vastly different things, both in the popular conscious and in actual legal meaning. LonelyProgrammer (talk) 08:51, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Thank you, I will change "merge" to "distinguish". Do have some source to clear the difference? --Geysirhead (talk) 19:30, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

No man's land generally refers to land under dispute. For example, a UN-administrated demilitarized zone is an example of a no man's land. Terra nullius on the other hand referred to "pristine" land not claimed by anyone. The only proper examples of terra nullius on earth is Antarctica and some small uninhabited volcanic islands that sometimes appear in shallow seas outside any state's territorial waters. ImTheIP (talk) 19:52, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

That doesn't contain any source. Moreover, it contradicts the (apparently sourced) statement in the article: “[S]ome pockets on the west bank [...] are not claimed by either country.” ◅ Sebastian 10:13, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

Unfortunately, some jokers keep inserting the section the Gornja Siga territorial dispute into this article. It doesn't have one iota to do with terra nullius, confuses readers and I've deleted it several times but it keeps reappearing. ImTheIP (talk) 12:52, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

Well, if that is citably so, then it shouldn't rest on your shoulders alone to revert it. I'd help you, then. But doesn't the text I quote mean that, at least for those pockets, the distinction that you wrote applies - it's “land not claimed by anyone”? The “pristine”, despite being placed in quotation marks by you, seems to be no actual quote but your own opinion. ◅ Sebastian 13:05, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

The "pristine" is the important part of the definition. For now, I'm not going to provide sources so you either have to trust me or research the topic yourself. We know that the Gornja Siga pockets belong to either Serbia or Croatia. Thus, there is a legitimate, pre-existing claim to every part of the territory in dispute which means that the territory cannot be terra nullius. Suppose someone claims to have traded my car for his bike and I deny a trade ever having taken place. We both claim the car and neither of us claim the bike but, clearly, one of us still owns the bike and the other owns the car. ImTheIP (talk) 14:23, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

OK, let me know when you (or anyone else) found a reliable source. As long as this is about nothing but unsourced opinions, I agree with the OP. ◅ Sebastian 16:23, 16 November 2020 (UTC)    (I stopped watching this page. If you would like to continue the talk, please do so here and ping me.)

Sealand

This article claims that the British government has never tried to evict Sealand, but I recall that the tried once but left when there were shots fired.DankNoscoper (talk) 01:48, 1 November 2020 (UTC)

There are two seperate incidents you might be thinking of. The first was when British workcrews attempted to service a buoy nearby, and the occupants of Sealand fired warning shots over their head. The British government brought the Sealanders to trial over it, but a British court ruled that they lacked jurisdiction. The other was an strange incident where the artificial island was stormed by mercenaries bought by a private third party to attempt to take over the island. They failed. While both are interesting incidents, neither were attempts to evict the residents of Sealand. LonelyProgrammer (talk) 08:49, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Australia

To editor Tobus: You added "It was formally claimed that Australia was terra nullius in 1935 by Governor Burke." First, 1835 not 1935. Also, Australia was not a united entity at that time and Burke was only the Governor of New South Wales. So your sentence is inaccurate beyond the typo and should be modified. To avoid misunderstanding in the opposite direction, it should be noted that New South Wales was much larger in 1835 than it is now. The boundaries are described in the proclamation and correspond closely to everything except what is now Western Australia and Tasmania. I'm not editing this because I don't know what the situation was in those other territories. Zero^talk 07:58, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up on both issue - I should also point out that "terra nullius" itself didn't exist as a phrase at that time. I've updated my edit to a) correct the year, b) use "British ownership" instead of "Australia", c) not claim "terra nullius" itself was used in the proclamation. I hope that makes things clearer - at the very least it's certainly better than the original text "It was formally claimed by the settlers that Australia was terra nullius at the time of settlement" which is just not true (and suffers from the same 3 issues!). Tobus (talk) 10:03, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

I have made further modifications to this which I am happy to discuss. Bourke's proclamation didn't introduce the notion of Terra Nullius or the notion of "British ownership" of NSW. I have added a quote from Justice Dawson in the Mabo case which sumarises the situation. The British acted as if the Crown had absolute beneficial ownership of NSW land from the moment of colonisation. Governors had been making land grants since 1788 without consultation with, or compensation to, the Australian natives. Bourke Proclamation is just one in a long list of executive acts regulating land ownership and use. I think it's a mistake to discuss this as if there was a "doctrine of terra nullius which was implemented". Rather, Britain simply took possession of the eastern half of New Holland as an act of state and legal doctrines were latter developed to try to provide a legal basis for this. I think there's also a confusion between two things: 1) A justification in international law for Britain's claim in New Holland; 2) British common law recognition of native title. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 00:07, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

History is wrong?

The History section currently states: "The American legal historian Stuart Banner has located an earlier usage of the term from 1819 in a tax dispute between the English-born Australian Supreme Court judge and poet Barron Field and the Governor of New South Wales Lachlan Macquarie. There is now some recognition that Field originated the term in its contemporary legal sense. The academic Justin Clemens claims that Field made "the first formal statement of terra nullius" in Australia."

Reading the reference (a 2018 article about Stuart Bannon's 2005 paper by Justin Clemens) it doesn't seem to say that Field used the actual phrase "terra nullius" at all, just that he used the same underlying concept, to wit that Australia was "freely settled" and not invaded/taken over. Banner's paper is paywalled so I can't check it directly, but my interpretation is confirmed by a 2019 article co-authored by Thomas Ford and the same Justin Clemens: "As noted by Banner, the immediate occasion for Field’s formal application of what would later become known as terra nullius to New South Wales was a jurisdictional dispute about taxation" (emphasis mine). In 1819 Field did NOT use the term "terra nullius".

In short, I think the claim "Stuart Banner has located an earlier usage of the term from 1819" is a misunderstanding - it's not what the reference says and it should be removed. Tobus (talk) 11:12, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

You are right about the Banner article. I've made the necessary change and moved the statement to a more logical place. The whole History section needs to be rewritten more concisely and concentrate on scholarly articles about the concept rather than the tedious Australian debate among culture war warriors which, thankfully, now seems dead and buried. The Banner article is very good and the references he uses wil make a good basis for a re-write. I will have a go at it when I get the time. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 12:41, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

Terra nullius and discovery doctrine

Hello all

I find this article is confusing, insufficiently concise and isn't focused on what exactly the doctrine of Terra nullius is and how it developed over time. Most of the information could be summarised is a few short sentences. Some recent proposed edits by @Nsae Comp also raise the issue of the relationship between terra nullius and the doctrine of discovery. My understanding of terra nullius is that it refers to:

1) Newly discovered land that literally had no human inhabitants and was therefore open to occupation and acquisition by any recognised state.

2) An extended concept of terra nullius: land that had human inhabitants but these were considered either not to be sufficiently politically advanced to constitute a state; or didn't cultivate the land; or were heathens or otherwise uncivilised. Such land was also terra nullius and could be claimed by a recognised state through discovery and occupation. This was an obvious pretext for colonialism.

My understanding of the discovery doctrine is that if a recognised state discovered a land that was terra nullius it could gain sovereignty over the land by occupation. If a recognised state "discovered" a land that wasn't terra nullius it could gain sovereignty over that land by conquest or cession.

If anyone agrees that this distinction could be the basis for a rewrite of this article I would be happy to work with them on producing a revised version. Nsae Comp recently added the following source which defines terra nullius and the doctrine of discovery. However, I find the definitions in this source circular, unclear and sometimes in plain contradiction to the other sources in the article. Happy to discuss. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 09:42, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

I agree that the article is jumbled up and that the several quotes are a bit unnecessary. I readded the part in the body about discovery doctrine, because I dont see what is wrong with it other than that there are probably more in depth sources, since it definatly is not unrelated and quite an issue in colonial studies. Ill not participate much at the moment though, time is scarce. Best wishes. Nsae Comp (talk) 07:05, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

That's fine. I've just edited it slightly. Thanks for your contribution. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 10:07, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

It was not just being "uncivilized" -- it was usually when they couldn't find anyone who had the authority to sign a treaty, which correlates with being at the "band" level in the well-known anthropological band-tribe-chiefdom-state continuum. I'm not sure they considered Maori to be "civilized", but treaties were signed in New Zealand because they were at the chiefdom level there... AnonMoos (talk) 22:16, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

Yes, in practice it was more to do with finding people to negotiate with and the abilty of native populations to fight back. But the legal justifications were another matter. I will try to develop some words and submit them for consideration by other editors. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 05:13, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

There was a rough-and-ready approximate correlation between legalities and anthropological realities, in that if there was no style of political leadership that British could understand, and no one who seemed to have the authority to sign a treaty (both of which were somewhat correlated with what anthropologists call the "band" level of social organization), then from the European point of view, no meaningful political community existed, which also meant that no recognizable form of land ownership existed. See the comments of "06:44, 10 August 2010" etc. above. Again, none of this applied to New Zealand... AnonMoos (talk) 03:24, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

Doctrine

Hello all,

I have added a section to better explain the doctrine of terra nullius in order to make the following sections easier to understand. The new section probably needs to be expanded, particularly regarding the idea of occupation. However, I still haven’t found a good source with a pithy summary of the concept. Happy to discuss. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 11:02, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

History

Hello all,

I have expanded this section with more material focusing on the development of the international law concept of terra nullius. I have moved most of the material concerning the debate over whether Australia was colonised as terra nulius to the Historical claims of terra nullius section where is seems to more logically belong. Happy to discuss. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 11:18, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

Historical claims of terra nullius, Australia

Hello all

I have expanded this section with more information on the relevant Case law and a more specific focus on the doctrine of terra nullius in Australia. I have also included material from the History section which seems to better belong here. I have removed some information of marginal relevance. Happy to discuss. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 11:28, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

Gornja Siga and other pockets

Hello all I have removed some statements about private individuals "claiming" portions of these pockets. Terra Nullius is a rule of international law by which nation states can aquire new territory. Claims under terra nullius cannot be made by private individuals. The sources cited are from online tabloid style sites and therefore are not reliable sources. WP:RELIABLE Furthermore they point out that the land claimed is not terra nullius. Happy to discuss. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 23:39, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

The material I have removed is already adequately covered in the article on micronations, where it belongs. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 23:56, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

Do the Saudi-Iraqi-Kuwaiti neutral zones qualify as terra nullius, or are they some different category?

I noticed they aren't mentioned in this article, which I felt they should be, however it's also possible I'm missing some information because I am not educated enough on this topic. 99.238.24.150 (talk) 04:04, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

It's not really the same, because the neutral zones were effectively claimed by both, not by neither of them. AnonMoos (talk) 22:19, 13 September 2023 (UTC)