Talk:Pope John XII

Really?

It would be nice to see even ONE SINGLE CITATION on this article. All I hear is, "Someone said..." over and over again.

Year of birth, age when Pope

Before I changed it, our article said that he was born in 938 and became Pope when he was 16. Our source is obviously the 1911 edition of Britannica. However the more recent edition of Britannica claim that he was born in 937, and became Pope when he was 18 years old. The Columbia Encyclopedia and MSN Encarta also support 937 as the year of birth. The online source Catholic-forum.com also support 937 as YOB. The Catholic Encyclopedia says "Date of birth unknown". I can't find other sources than the 1911 Britannica, that support the claim that he was 16 years old when he became Pope/938 as YOB. So I changed it for now. I also removed: "Some legends say he was actually 18 when he died, but if that were the case, he would have only been 11 at the time he became pope." It was added by an anon user: [1] and I can't find anything that support the claim, so until a source is provided, I think it should be removed. Stereotek 06:58, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

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Because it is my favorite .sig line ever, I have to include this (found on soc.hist.what-if )

"There is furthermore a sentence in your letter more fitting for a stupid boy than a bishop. You excommunicated us all if we appointed another bishop to the see of Rome, and yet gave us power to celebrate the mass and ordain clerical functionaries. You said: 'You have no power to ordain no one.' We always thought, or rather believed, that two negatives make an affirmative, if your authority did not weaken the verdict of the authors of old."

--Excerpt from a letter in which a synod of fifty Italian and German bishops came together in 963 to depose Pope John XII, citing sacrilege, simony, perjury, murder, adultery, incest, and the use of a double negative.

Kd5mdk 20:12, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

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John XII, was confirmed by many historians as worst Pope ever. He was killed in bedroom when caught with someones wife. --90.157.231.38 (talk) 12:37, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Or had a stroke while with another man's wife http://time.com/4633580/young-pope-history/ Legacypac (talk) 21:03, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

Sorted in LGBT cats

• Category:LGBT Roman Catholic popes

Pope John XII was a LGBT Roman Catholic pope. That should be sorted in catsegory.

• Advocate.con: 21 Gay Popes, Cardinals, and Assorted Catholic Leaders, By Jacob Ogle

--188.96.230.248 (talk) 20:52, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

Was John XII Antipope?

John XII ever when He held Mass without Communion. He also invoke Jupiter, Saturnus, and Demons showed him as Antipope. And He wasn't a Pope.

This principle is most certain. The non-Christian cannot in any way be Pope, as Cajetan himself admits (ib. c. 26). The reason for this is that he cannot be head of what he is not a member; now he who is not a Christian is not a member of the Church, and a manifest heretic is not a Christian, as is clearly taught by St. Cyprian (lib. 4, epist. 2), St. Athanasius (Scr. 2 cont. Arian.), St. Augustine (lib. de great. Christ. cap. 20), St. Jerome (contra Lucifer.) and others; therefore the manifest heretic cannot be Pope. To this Cajetan responds (in Apol. pro tract. praedicto cap. 25 et in ipso tract. cap. 22) that the heretic is not a Christian “simpliciter” [i.e. without qualification, or absolutely], but is one “secundum quid” [i.e. in a qualified or relative sense]. For, granted that two things constitute the Christian — the faith and the [baptismal] character — the heretic, having lost the faith, is still in some way united to the Church and is capable of jurisdiction; therefore, he is also Pope, but ought to be removed, since he is disposed, with ultimate disposition, to cease to be Pope: as the man who is still not dead but is “in extremis” [at the point of death].

If he invoked Jupiter, Venus and other demons. And then I cite again, " They even said he did not celebrate Matins at the canonical hours nor did he make the sign of the cross. "

That Action is Apostasy on Catholic View. So, If many Roman Catholics who knew about his life at later life, Maybe Pope John XII would become an Antipope in his life because his apostasy. 139.192.161.70 (talk) 23:42, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

Without citations, this seems to be opinion at best. Peaceray (talk) 00:51, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

@Peaceray If you don't believe, please check this website which contains many thesis about that :

https://cmri.org/articles-on-the-traditional-catholic-faith/on-the-roman-pontiff/

Pope who embraces Heresy or Apostasy Publicly, can and must be deposed by the Church.

And about Apostate and Heretic can't be a Pope,

Pope Julius II said that,

"It shall be lawful for each and all of the cardinals,…as well as for all the clergy and the Roman people,… to withdraw without penalty and at any time from obedience and loyalty to the person so elected even if he has been enthroned (while they themselves, notwithstanding this, remain fully committed to the faith of the Roman church and to obedience towards a future Roman pontiff entering office in accordance with the canons) and to avoid him as a magician, a heathen, a publican and a heresiarch.” Pope Julius II, Council of Lateran V. 1513

You can see Julius II Citations on this website :

https://www.virgosacrata.com/catholic-church-teaching-on-heresy.html 139.193.86.30 (talk) 15:15, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

The term Antipope does not mean what you believe it means. It merely signifies a rival claimant for the papal throne who is in opposition to the then current occupant of the chair of St Peter. The title has nothing to do with the person's morals or character. The Catholic Church officially recognises John XII as a legitimate Pope - if you go to the Vatican website, you will see John XII there listed https://www.vatican.va/content/vatican/en/holy-father/giovanni-xii.html Oatley2112 (talk) 09:43, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

About Antipope term, what do you know about it?

Antipope is not only rival to legitimate or claimant true papal, but also someone who try to replace Catholicism Dogma or Catholicism Doctrine with false doctrines which is infiltrated to Magisterium or Tradition.

That's what we have known as antipope.

Who contradicts Catholicism dogma publicly, he is outside from Catholic Church de facto.

Of Course John XII is really pope because his Heresy and also his Apostasy aren't published ny himself. But himself had done it despite secretly, but many cardinals and then next Pope Candidate like Leo VIII try to deposed John XII from Papal Throne because Octavian's Heresy and Octavian's Apotasy which were known on his life by cardinals. But He still a Pope during He didn't publish his apostasy and his Heresy.

This is History as you know. 139.193.86.3 (talk) 14:19, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

A commonly accepted definition for antipope can be found on Wiktionary.

Since you are trying to introduce your own interpretation of what the word antipope means, you are engaged in original research, which is not allowed on English Wikipedia. We only accept material that can be verified from reliable sources.

That is Wikipedia dogma. This is the way. Peaceray (talk) 14:49, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

Absolutely, as it explained at the Synod of Rome in 963 (on John XII wikipedia article) :

" Then, rising up, the cardinal priest Peter testified that he himself had seen John XII celebrate Mass without taking communion. John, bishop of Narni, and John, a cardinal deacon, professed that they themselves saw that a deacon had been ordained in a horse stable, but were unsure of the time. Benedict, cardinal deacon, with other co-deacons and priests, said they knew that he had been paid for ordaining bishops, specifically that he had ordained a ten-year-old bishop in the city of Todi ... They testified about his adultery, which they did not see with their own eyes, but nonetheless knew with certainty: he had fornicated with the widow of Rainier, with Stephana his father's concubine, with the widow Anna, and with his own niece, and he made the sacred palace into a whorehouse. They said that he had gone hunting publicly; that he had blinded his confessor Benedict, and thereafter Benedict had died; that he had killed John, cardinal subdeacon, after castrating him; and that he had set fires, girded on a sword, and put on a helmet and cuirass. All, clerics as well as laymen, declared that he had toasted to the devil with wine. They said when playing at dice, he invoked Jupiter, Venus and other demons. They even said he did not celebrate Matins at the canonical hours nor did he make the sign of the cross."

Yes, He performed many deprivation like mass without communion, invoking ancient roman gods like Jupiter, Venus, and other demons which it explains if He is outside of Catholic Church de facto if it performs deprivation publicly.

But, for this, need to source and strongly proofs to judge John XII as Heretic and Apostate because He didn't perform his deprivation publicly. If this is proved, maybe John XII to be an Antipope as we can simply. And Synod of Rome (963) was only Synod which is made by some Cardinal with political goal in Rome. Vincentferrer77 (talk) 14:51, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

Also, neither of those sources that 139.193.86.30 cites seems to mention John XII. Peaceray (talk) 19:49, 22 February 2023 (UTC)